Jump to content


Photo

The Royal Regiment of Fusiliers.


  • Please log in to reply
186 replies to this topic

#161 leigh kitchen

leigh kitchen

    Old Contemptible

  • Old Contemptible
  • 4,954 posts

Posted 22 January 2011 - 18:50

Thanks for the comments.

These badges where obviously unpopular, and didn't 'look right' on the fur cap. They where certainly replaced fairly quickly by those Ind/Pak ones, we've seen previously.

Therefore, surplus to fur cap requirements, the Regiment (or QM more like!) being frugal would certainly have reused them if at all possible and as Graham states, where better than on the Pioneer apron. Makes sense to me.

Either way I'm happy it's mine!



The badges in use in 1 RRF in the early 70's were dies-truck yellow metal, the heavy, crude, cast ones with a copper sheen when new, they were made in Pakistan & shipped to The Tower (where I was lurking for a few months) about January 1980, along with hackles in the colours of the old component regiments & officer's gilt & silver coloured bearet badges of the same size & design as the anod. aluminium beret badge.

I got a few of the Drummer's badges at about 1 a time, hackles at about 25p a time, but never got my hands on the officer's beret badges at 2 a time - I asked, Col Connelly did'nt say no, but the matter was tactfully dropped.

#162 leigh kitchen

leigh kitchen

    Old Contemptible

  • Old Contemptible
  • 4,954 posts

Posted 22 January 2011 - 19:04



Not sure about this one. A Land Rover CP and two operators, certainly taken sometime after the introduction of the new DPM combat dress.



They seem familiar Graham, possibly 1970's vintage - try your old RRF contacts out with "Dekka Irons" Ant-Tank Pl Support Coy & 6 Pl "X" Coy 1 RRF for the man on the left.

#163 leigh kitchen

leigh kitchen

    Old Contemptible

  • Old Contemptible
  • 4,954 posts

Posted 22 January 2011 - 19:18

A Drummer's fur cap badge in die-struck yellow metal which has been plated a silver colour. A matt, frosted appearance on the back, polished on the front, this badge is toned & appears to have a bit of age to it.

Memory may be playing tricks, but I have a vague recollection (as usual)that the CO & other officers of 1 RRF in the 1970's aquired the Drummer's die-struck yellow metal badges for use on their private vehicles vehicles, possibly having them chromed, but I don't think this is chromed.

Could it have been worn by a TA battalion? I think it was 6 RRF who were known by the name of Volunteers some years ago?

Edited by leigh kitchen, 25 January 2011 - 22:02 .


#164 leigh kitchen

leigh kitchen

    Old Contemptible

  • Old Contemptible
  • 4,954 posts

Posted 22 January 2011 - 19:20

Looks like it's had a bit of polishing prior to being plated.

#165 leigh kitchen

leigh kitchen

    Old Contemptible

  • Old Contemptible
  • 4,954 posts

Posted 24 January 2011 - 20:59

"Gilt & silver plated", measuring 90 mm x 65 mm, two lug fittings to the rear.
A Queen's Fusiliers badge?

This was advertised as a RRF helmet badge.

I have an idea that I've seen this in a photo in The London Regiment edition of "The Regiment" some years ago, but I have'nt got the magazine to hand.

I have an idea that this may actually be a helmet insignia of The Queen's Fusiliers, as unlikely as it seems.

The single badge photos are all of this 90 mm x 65 mm badge, note that the dragon's wing is laying down as per the design on the current bi-metal fur cap badge on which the St George & dragon have turned to face the same way as this & the cap badge (perhaps the same dies are used? The wing is not sticking up in the air as it does on the anodised cap, collar dog & the previous designs of fur cap badges. The area between the dragon & the base of the wreath on the mounted design is not voided.

The photo of four badges shows the large badge here with an anoidised aluminium cap badge & collar dog & the cast yellow metal fur cap badge for size comparison (but I have'nt got one of those nice big 14.5 cm badges to show with them).

Attached Files


Edited by leigh kitchen, 26 January 2011 - 18:26 .


#166 leigh kitchen

leigh kitchen

    Old Contemptible

  • Old Contemptible
  • 4,954 posts

Posted 26 January 2011 - 17:10

The stable belt of RRF, the belt plates fittings are of brass other than the badge, which is of anodiused aluminium & identical to the cap badge other than that it has two fittings are shorter than those of the cap badge & it does'nt have the hackle attachment of the cap badge> The belt is shortened / lengthened by velcos strips sewn along parts of its length inside.

Attached Files



#167 leigh kitchen

leigh kitchen

    Old Contemptible

  • Old Contemptible
  • 4,954 posts

Posted 26 January 2011 - 17:13

Also worn by RRF, at least in the 1970's, were older style stable belts with leather strap fittings, previously worn by The Lancashire Fusiliers.

This particular one is named to a member of The Signals Platoon, H.Q. Company, 3 RRF.

Attached Files



#168 Graham Stewart

Graham Stewart

    Full Member

  • Gold Membership
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,013 posts

Posted 27 January 2011 - 15:04

A Drummer's fur cap badge in die-struck yellow metal which has been plated a silver colour. A matt, frosted appearance on the back, polished on the front, this badge is toned & appears to have a bit of age to it.

Memory may be playing tricks, but I have a vague recollection (as usual)that the CO & other officers of 1 RRF in the 1970's aquired the Drummer's die-struck yellow metal badges for use on their private vehicles vehicles, possibly having them chromed, but I don't think this is chromed.

Could it have been worn by a TA battalion? I think it was 6 RRF who were known by the name of Volunteers some years ago?


Leigh
Not seen one of these before, but it does look pukka enough for me and I'd love to know more about it myself. Having PM'd you earlier I wonder if it was one of the early pattern Balderick badges worn by drummers. The same badge, although unplated was taken and turned into a plaid broach for the Northumbrian piper, which I have and will have to photo for this section.

The "Fusiler Volunteers" which you mention were a creation of the 1968(?) T.A.V.R. during the big MOD shake-up, with a single company being provided by Northumberland, London, Warwicks & Lancashire, but little is known exactly as to what badges they adopted apart from the normal RRF badges we see.

Edited by Graham Stewart, 27 January 2011 - 15:05 .


#169 Graham Stewart

Graham Stewart

    Full Member

  • Gold Membership
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,013 posts

Posted 27 January 2011 - 15:17

"Gilt & silver plated", measuring 90 mm x 65 mm, two lug fittings to the rear.
A Queen's Fusiliers badge?

This was advertised as a RRF helmet badge.

I have an idea that I've seen this in a photo in The London Regiment edition of "The Regiment" some years ago, but I have'nt got the magazine to hand.

I have an idea that this may actually be a helmet insignia of The Queen's Fusiliers, as unlikely as it seems.

The photo of four badges shows the large badge here with an anoidised aluminium cap badge & collar dog & the cast yellow metal fur cap badge for size comparison (but I have'nt got one of those nice big 14.5 cm badges to show with them).


Picked one of these up years ago and yours is infact only the second I've ever seen. The "Queens Fusiliers" as they were, seemed to keep their old pattern RRF/Queens badges for each the RRF/Queens contingents that made up the battalion, with only slip on titles seemingly made to reflect that it was a 'new' unit.

I'm unsure if they had a band or what the head-dress was for the band, but unless they wore a blue cloth helmet don't think it was for the fur cap, but it could have been a pouch badge for the Fusilier element of the band, as the "Queens" pouch badge itself was quite large.

#170 leigh kitchen

leigh kitchen

    Old Contemptible

  • Old Contemptible
  • 4,954 posts

Posted 27 January 2011 - 15:33

I've got some idea that they were produced for the Drummy as headress or baldric badge, something like that, & that only a few were made, I don't know where I've got that idea from, it might just be a flight of fancy, it's just ringing bells from somewhere. Queen's Fusiliers, the more recent London Regt, I just can't place it.

#171 leigh kitchen

leigh kitchen

    Old Contemptible

  • Old Contemptible
  • 4,954 posts

Posted 25 March 2011 - 14:58

It was always disputed as to whether or not it was ever worn in the fur cap until the photo appeared in the MHS Bulletin as mentioned by TI. However as he mentions they wear a white plume and not the familiar red over white as would be worn by the RRF, so it appears we're looking at the period of the "Fusilier Brigade".

I too have one of these large Fusilier badges as illustrated by TI in mint condition bought in Warwickshire in the early 80's, but mine has a black felt backing shaped slightly larger than the badge itself, which leads me to believe that they were eventually worn on the Pioneer aprons.

Hopefully if I get home next month, volcanic ash permitting, I'll try and post photo's of some of the more unusual RRF badges.



Finally got around to picking up one of the "large" (about 14cm x 11cm) badges today, see what it's like when it arrives........


......and here it is, the following morning.

Attached Files


Edited by leigh kitchen, 26 March 2011 - 10:44 .


#172 Graham Stewart

Graham Stewart

    Full Member

  • Gold Membership
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,013 posts

Posted 30 August 2011 - 22:19

Attached File  RRF (Medium).jpg   20.69KB   14 downloads

Having not been in the UK for the last four months, I haven't been able to add to this thread. However now that I'm back I can now add this one. The RRF Regimental Handbook dated 2004 and what an informative book it is, not unlike regimental "Standing Orders". Very, very pleased to get my hands on this one.

Edited by Graham Stewart, 30 August 2011 - 22:20 .


#173 fusilbrush

fusilbrush

    Basic Member

  • Basic Membership
  • 5 posts
  • Location:wiltshire

Posted 08 September 2011 - 11:02



A sight not seen since 1968 all of the hackles being worn with No.2's and the old Fusilier Brigade cap badge, before they became Royal Regiment of Fusiliers.



This is probably amalgamation day St.Georges Day 1968, as you will note the different coloured hackles being worn. Obviously seem to be the youngest lads of each regiment parading in full dress(apart from fur caps) for the occassion.

These are Junior Soldiers From the junior soldiers wing, 15 to 17 year olds, Corps of drums at St Georges Barracks, Sutton Coldfield. They got these scarlets coats in 1963 and first wore them on my pass out parade.

#174 fusilbrush

fusilbrush

    Basic Member

  • Basic Membership
  • 5 posts
  • Location:wiltshire

Posted 08 September 2011 - 11:06



A sight not seen since 1968 all of the hackles being worn with No.2's and the old Fusilier Brigade cap badge, before they became Royal Regiment of Fusiliers.

These are lads from the junior soldiers 15 to 17 year olds wing corps of drums. Little buggers but could be quite smart on parade.

#175 fusilbrush

fusilbrush

    Basic Member

  • Basic Membership
  • 5 posts
  • Location:wiltshire

Posted 08 September 2011 - 11:06



A sight not seen since 1968 all of the hackles being worn with No.2's and the old Fusilier Brigade cap badge, before they became Royal Regiment of Fusiliers.

These are lads from the junior soldiers 15 to 17 year olds wing corps of drums. Little buggers but could be quite smart on parade.

#176 Graham Stewart

Graham Stewart

    Full Member

  • Gold Membership
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,013 posts

Posted 11 September 2011 - 10:37

Cheers for that fusilbrush, I'll make a note on the back of the photo's.

#177 jf42

jf42

    Member

  • Bronze Membership
  • Pip
  • 104 posts
  • Location:London

Posted 27 September 2011 - 15:54

I'm going to cross post this question across the three Fusilier threads. When did regulations start referring to a 'hackle' in Fusilier head dress (Assuming they did)? My guess it would be after the Fusilier distinction was adapted for Foreign Service helmets and then berets. As far as the Fusilier fur cap from 1866 to 1914 is concerned, were the relevant distinctions referred to as feathers or plumes? Or both?

#178 Stuart Bates

Stuart Bates

    Member

  • Gold Membership
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,550 posts
  • Location:Resigned from forum Oct 2011

Posted 28 September 2011 - 05:55

The 1864 Dress Regulations give a white horsehair plume except for the 5th who had a red over white.

The 1874 Dress Regulations give a feather hackle as do all subsequent DRs.

Hope this helps.

Stuart

#179 Graham Stewart

Graham Stewart

    Full Member

  • Gold Membership
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,013 posts

Posted 28 September 2011 - 14:47

The 1864 Dress Regulations give a white horsehair plume except for the 5th who had a red over white.

The 1874 Dress Regulations give a feather hackle as do all subsequent DRs.

Hope this helps.

Stuart


Very interesting Stuart, as in all my time the 5th always referred to their adornment as a "plume", whether it be of horse hair or feather. In the RNF Topic section I refer to my first introduction to the general descriptive wording "hackle" for the feather item worn by the Black Watch when wearing the SD Balmoral c.1902. From this period it seems to depend on what the material was made of and with what it was worn - but the word "hackle" seems more common to the small feather items, whereas the larger feather items worn by either officers or Rifles are described as "plumes". With the introduction of the beret for Fusiliers the word "hackle" is used from the beginning. of it's introduction.

I can't dispute Stuarts DR reference to the use of the word "hackle" and it's dating, but in general terms among it's wearers and uniform historians "plume" seems to take precedence over "hackle" until the turn of the century.

#180 Stuart Bates

Stuart Bates

    Member

  • Gold Membership
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,550 posts
  • Location:Resigned from forum Oct 2011

Posted 28 September 2011 - 21:15

Hi Graham,

it is interesting that the DRs all decribe this item under the "heading" Plume e.g. -

(1864) Plume - white horsehair, drooping from stem five inches high, with gilt grenade socket, except the 5th Fusiliers, who are authorized to wear one of red and white, the white uppermost

(1874) Plume, for 5th Fusiliers -- Red and white hackle feather, 4 1/2 inches high, the red above, worn on left side

(1883) Plume - For Northumberland Fusiliers only -- Red and white hackle feather, 4 1/2 inches high, the red above; worn on left side

(1891) Plume - as above for 1883

(1894) Plume - as above for 1891

(1900) Plume - Northumberland Fusiliers -- red and white hackle feather, 4 1/2 inches high, the red above; worn on left side; gilt two flame socket. Royal Irish Fusiliers, green cut feather 6 1/2 inches high.

Now this could be read to mean that either from 1874 onwards until 1900 only the Northumberland Fusiliers wore a hackle or may be the white persisted for all other regiments.

In Barthorp's British Infantry Uniforms p96 there is a photograph of a Royal Welch Fusilier c1872 with no hackle, however in his appendix 2 he has this table of plume colours 1881-1914 :-
  • Royal Northumberland Fusiliers - Scarlet over white, left (Plume in racoon-skin cap)
  • Royal Fusiliers - White, right (Plume in racoon-skin cap)
  • Lancashire Fusiliers - Primrose, left (Plume in racoon-skin cap)
  • Royal Scots Fusiliers - White, right (Plume in sealskin cap)
  • Royal Welch Fusiliers - White, left (Plume in racoon-skin cap)
Ask a simple question and others are generated.


Stuart

Edited by Stuart Bates, 28 September 2011 - 21:18 .





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users