Kriegsmarine Navy Field Bishops Tabs

[Chris Liontas]

With the posting of the fantastic set of Navy ribbon bars by Webr55 from Naval Deacon (Marinedekan) Friedrich August Ronneberger I thought it was a good time to revive this thread from the WAF. The Navy tabs were discussed at some length on that site years ago, without the benefit of photographs to compare the tabs to.

I am going to post the thread here that Rick started, and continue it over the next few days and hopefully expand it a little bit.

First off, the Marine Deacon of the German Navy in World War II. There was one in the entire Navy, and Deacon Ronneberger comprised one of three clergy to attain the military rank of Bishop during World War II making it one of the rareest ranks in the german military.

Edited June 28, 2007 by Chris Liontas

[Chris Liontas]

Now the Posting:

From Rick:

These beautiful bullion and plush collar tabs are in the collection of a friend. I have personally handled them. They convince me in every way, based on all the other similar Third Reich tabs (Luftwaffe being most similar) that they ARE genuine, original, and as we collectors say, "good."

the quality, construction, materials, age-- everything is "as it should be"--

I see nothing wrong with these. They pass every test.

And yet: at any given national level show, several pairs can readily be found. At any given moment, you can no doubt turn up a pair somewhere among your favorite online dealers.

Am I questioning ANY of these sellers' honesty, integrity, and experience? No indeed. MY honesty, integrity, and experience would be right there in solidarity beside them!

And yet (this IS a Learning Exercise!)

statistics cannot lie, here:

There were, during the entire period of the Third Reich when these were worn, precisely THREE--count 'em, THREE-- Clergymen entitled to wear them:

1) Franz Dohrmann (1881-1969), Protestant Field Bishop of the Wehrmacht (army AND navy, simultaneously) from 1 April 1934 to surrender 22 April 1945,

2) Franz Rarkowski (1873-1950), Catholic Field Bishop of the Wehrmacht (army AND navy, simultaneously) from 1 October 1929 (acting, confirmed only in 1938) until 6 February 1945 (though on sick leave from 27.1.44),

and

3) Friedrich Ronneberger (1886-1968), who although only "senior Naval Deacon" ("dienst?ltester Marinedekan") and Chaplain of the North Sea Station from 31.8.36-8.5.45, for some reason was granted these insignia, possibly from his "seniority" of 11 December 1939, but certainly by the end of the war. He held this position ONLY in the Navy.

For those who would squeal and yell and say that of course all of their dozens and hundreds of insignia are absolutely original--I am NOT arguing with you.

Statistics, however, argue with us ALL:

THREE clergymen. Period. NO OTHERS. Volume 4 of "Deutschlands Admirale 1849-1945" gives ALL the military bishops (always joint army AND navy) for that entire century. There were, in 100 years, NEVER more than ONE Protestant and ONE Catholic military bishop at any time. No "Assistant Bishops." No "Under Bishops." No "Really, Really Senior Chaplains." In fact, there were very often GAPS in having any Catholic representative at all, given "Ultramontaine" problems, from Bismarck through Hitler. Authorized strengths for military chaplains were: one of each Protestant and Catholic PER DIVISION. 500--or 1,000--chaplains in the military did not require more than one Bishop "each" any more than the normal civilian parishes did.

During the Third Reich period there were NO ancient retirees who had previously held the position recalled to Wehrmacht duty, ever.

The only photos one ever sees in published works always show Dohrmann (a diminutive fellow) and Rarkowski (a Friar Tuck type) in ARMY uniform.

No doubt, whenever their official duties took them to some naval function, they then wore naval uniform for a couple of hours. Ronneberger, of course, wore his all the time.

Statistics: how many reefer jackets do two "part time" naval Bishops wear out during the Third Reich? How many overcoats, if indeed they may have even worn these tabs on those? How many such outfits would Deacon Ronneberger have worn out, or ruined, 1939-45?

Let us be liberal and say that each of these men had FOUR full suits of naval clothing, averaged together. That is a grand total in the history of the world of one dozen pairs of these tabs.

One dozen pairs.

Were military outfitters working round the clock mass producing these insignia in case Vatican hordes or the successors of Luther suddenly flooded into the ranks of the Wehrmacht? Would more than a single retailer have kept more than a half dozen pairs in a cardboard box in case either Bishop needed a sudden emergency spilled-gravy-on-'em/lost luggage replacement?

OK, one dozen insignias on tunics. Half a dozen in a cardboard box in Kiel.

EIGHTEEN pairs. Subtract war, and the losses of 56 years, and how many of the eighteen pairs can possibly

statistically

be left?

And yet they are at every show. Not counting all of them ALREADY in collections all over the world.

I am not saying that they are fake. The ones, like this pair, that I have seen all look good enough to "convince" me. (There are also horrible recent fakes, not talking about those). Many of these insignia that I have personal knowledge of have been resting in the same collections since the 1960s.

For those of you too young to remember back then, all fakes sucked, big time, back then.

So--

how can we possibly account for THREE Bishop-equivalents, 60 years on, leaving happy collectors and dealers all around the globe in possession of "their" insignia?

I certainly cannot explain it. This is like all the pieces of the "True Cross," which if combined, could build entire Cathedrals! A mystery neither "science" nor experience can explain....

PS for fakers and idiots who I have now provided with the only names possible above, who now think they can "improve" their insignia by inking initials

[Chris Liontas]

From Rick:

OK, no takers so far?

I can't accept--

"salesmen's samples" (why show what no one else would want--do you have THAT in a Luftwaffe flak...?)

or

"1946" (huddled in their roofless workshop, the gals at Schildkrote & Steinpelz churn out dozens upon dozens of the only OTHER thing they have to offer the Occupying Powers....)

or the ever popular (attached to dubious medals, as if this makes them better)

"British-made 1950s" (yes, yes, the Average Collector of 1958--like the Average Collector of 2001, did NOT want SS Panzer material, they wanted elderly clergymen's badges--of course! High demand = volume sales!)

or

"the Oliver Stone Version" (you know Stalin's famous sneering retort: "How many divisions does the Pope have?" what if... !!! Naw--all those Italian Masons woulda squealed by now!)

even the

"absolutely every single thing you own was made between 3 PM 18th April 1946 and 7 AM 29 October 1951, in greater numbers by far than ever existed during the war" version still runs headlong into the "salesmen's sample" rebuttal from above: who long decades past WANTED this sort of stuff?

"Exotica" collectors then as now wanted SS-Uboat Badges mit Rubinen, Rudolf Hess Presentation Toothpick Holders and all that sort of thing, not ministers' collar tabs, not civilian employees' shoulder boards, not all those boring little obscure items which no matter how actually rare, were NEVER in "demand." Are there factories in Sri Lanka churning out RAD soup bowls? (Please don't tell me, please, even if there are!)

So-- either there are thousands of originals for three old guys to wear Mondays through Saturdays,

or every single one of these blessed (sorry) things is a fake, and it took 40 years for the "sharpies" at Warsaw Wholesale Wool Re-Processing and Rawalpindi Handy-Dandy Custom Needleworks to figure out they could make more money at, oh, breast eagles, cuff titles, Luftwaffe flight badges, etc--and all that time their sales were stagnant churning out unwanted Chaplains' tabs!

Eez a puzzlement.

[Chris Liontas]

Tabs

[Chris Liontas]

Rick makes some outstanding points in his argument. He is right in that you can find Bishops tabs all over the market for the Navy version, however you rarely even see repros in the Army version.

I have not idea why repros of Navy lower and senior ranks collar tabs became so popular to reproduce. They are all over in abundance on the 'net. When originals surface now (lower ranks in silver), they are running a price tag from $2000 - $4000 a set.

Hopefully in the posts here we can come to some consensus on these tabs -- I will post some originals, compare to senior SS tabs (for the bullion work--one of the only other tabs with that much bullion is a good comparison via construction methods), and some fakes from horrible to not so bad.

I can tell you that fakers are correcting their past mistakes on these tabs. And in 5-10 year the design will be right.

[Guest Rick Research]

Yup. I photographed those with a camera in the dim dark mists of time, and now the tabs have moved on, so can't SCAN them afresh, but I did handle them at the time.

And I still cannot reconcile the excessive numbers available with the perfect construction/materials.

Even stranger, I have never seen a photo of either Dohrmann or Rarkowski wearing the naval version of their uniforms-- just the army version. Ronneberger was the only navy-only member of the trio.

[Chris Liontas]

Yup. I photographed those with a camera in the dim dark mists of time, and now the tabs have moved on, so can't SCAN them afresh, but I did handle them at the time.

And I still cannot reconcile the excessive numbers available with the perfect construction/materials.

Even stranger, I have never seen a photo of either Dohrmann or Rarkowski wearing the naval version of their uniforms-- just the army version. Ronneberger was the only navy-only member of the trio.

I agree Rick! I have no idea what made these so popular. I have talked to both Steve Wolf and George Petersen about these repro tabs, and both have stated they have been around since the early 70's, and were marketed as such. The wierd thing is, who would WANT Navy Field Bishop tabs in that kind of number?

One thought that has been buzzing around in my head, the repro artist might NOT have known the difference between t he Field Bishop rank and the regular Marinepfarrer rank. They may have thought they were cranking out regular tabs, I dont know any other reason.

I want to continue this discussion with some photos here compareing the real deal with the fakes. There are 500 fake Navy tabs to ever real tab out there.

[Chris Liontas]

bump again

[Laurence Strong]

Thanks Chris :cheers:

[Chris Liontas]

Latest set offered on ebay--Repros with a little more into them. Let me post these then shop them a little bit

[Chris Liontas]

Ok a breakdown,

These tabs are ok--but NOT what I would consider good German craftsmanship for the MarineDekan of the Kriegsmarine.

First off--the color pattern of these second modle tabs indicates Bishop rank. Bishop rank in the Navy was determined by a Violet (not purple) background with a GOLD cross with an oak leaf wreath. The wreaths came in several types--but I personally think Marinedekan Ronneberger was not really interested in the different types. By the fact of his late appointment to his rank during the war- I would assume he would have the regular "standard" fat oakleaf wreath around his tabs (rather than the skinny/short versions you see on some transitional tabs)

Now what do I mean transitional? These type were the second modle tabs to be issued to the Kriegsmarine. The first consisted of a straight cross with Laural wreath around it. (photo to follow). These tabs were with a violet/blue background and a silver cross. YOU WILL FIND NO TABS WITH THIS STYLE IN GOLD!!!! Marinedekan didnt exist at the time, and I doubt like hell the two Army German Field Bishops would have EVER dressed in a Navy uniform. They were much to strict for such a thing.

The second model tabs, were a gothic cross with a wreath consisting of oak leaves. The standard issue was one of a Navy Blue background with silver cross/wreath. This was including Marine Oberpfarrer. Only Ronneberger wore the gold.

Now 99% of the tabs you see online are the gold version--I dont have any idea why. I am betting the fakers just plain didnt know. The machines to make Luftwaffe tabs and SS tabs could be remachined to make Navy tabs also. This is why I think we see Navy tabs yet very few Heer FieldBishof tabs on the market.

Originals to follow once I get my camera recharged.

I hope this helps!

[Chris Liontas]

Another more modern craptastic pair of Marinedekan tabs. Look how DISTINCT the borders are of these crosses--yet the arms are stubby. Plus, they dont look ANYTHNG like the real crosses. These come in gold and silver

Carefull--these are sold as repros--but give them 10 years

Edited August 5, 2008 by Chris Liontas

[Chris Liontas]

A BEAUTIFUL pair of 100% orignals from Craig Gottliebs site.

USE THESE AS TEXTBOOK

[Chris Liontas]

another shot--look at the worksmanship---beautiful!!

Every angle is perfict. The arms have depth and length

The bullion on the borders of the cross is below the body of the cross--but not sloppy and seperated from it

The only thing wrong is I dont own them

....but that is another story

[Laurence Strong]

Excellent...many thanks Chris :cheers:

[Chris Liontas]

My tabs--bad shot I will get another

Again, my tabs are a little worn--but the bullion is still nice! Check out the wreath--Kriegsmarine chaplain collar tabs are like SS COL and higher--they were made to be works of art--

If you have sloppy acorns and leaves--save your $2000-4000 USD

This is a bad angle--but look at the depth of the stitching on the core part of the cross--very 3D--NOT FLAT!!!

Edited August 5, 2008 by Chris Liontas

[Chris Liontas]

LAst shot--

1st type

Unknown type

2nd type

2nd model late war wreath

LOOK AT THE BULLION WORK

Most dealers here, Germany, and Britian will screw you if they can. If you dont catch it--they dont think it is their fault. George Petersen says repro Navy have been around since the late 60s early 70s....careful!

Spend you money on a good set

Any reservations--dont buy

Edited August 5, 2008 by Chris Liontas

[Chris Liontas]

Another good tab---

Just WOW

This one I would list as an early tab- Look at how the wreath is smaller and does not take up the whole tab. Later photos in the war show larger wreaths around the crosses that take up the whole tab.

Edited August 5, 2008 by Chris Liontas

[Chris Liontas]

Speaking of large wreaths and crosses

BLECH!!!!

ugly repros

Edited August 5, 2008 by Chris Liontas

[Chris Liontas]

More ugly

compare again the worksmanship

Edited August 5, 2008 by Chris Liontas

[Chris Liontas]

Do I need to say it?

[Guest Rick Research]

Why? Whywhywhywhywhywhyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?

I do not understand what the "market" is. :banger:

[Chris Liontas]

Rick, I wish I knew. I dont see Kriegsmarine Marinepfarrer reinactors let alone Bishop ones. I just cant figure out who these would have been for.

Here is a first type set that was on Ebay.de as original...the buy it now price was a tad high at 67 Euro

Look at the rounded, fat, no detail leaves....bleh

Edited August 13, 2008 by Chris Liontas

[Chris Liontas]

Yet more!!

These are a new type to me--the "fat cross" if you will. Terrible bullion work and really off in the design

I really dont understand who they are making these for!!

Field Bishop

[Chris Liontas]

Marinepfarrer

The attachement of the border to the back is also sloppy and wrong--exact same design as above though--must be on some kind of computer equiptment

Wait and in 10 years, these will be on Navy tunics! :speechless:

Edited September 12, 2008 by Chris Liontas