EK 1939 Russian "Fur Raub und Mord" Iron Cross Found

[Mike]

I'm also not so sure about 2 classes being made ..one Class would do the job.

They wouldn't be trying to fool anyone ..they wanted to get a message across

Hi Chris (long time no see)

I already mentioned that .

But ya know ...when someone sees or understands just how far you'd go (way beyond mutilation)

to get a hate message across ..that also sends a message in itself

much like that Ace of Spades "calling Card" used in Vietnam

[Mike]

you can clearly see that fake brushed finish --

Edited November 13, 2007 by Mike

[greg koepp]

these are interesting and I see that they have done the job! I mean "the job" as something new to the collectors to really think about, we have seen allot of items and some collectors of many,many,many years haven't seen or known about these before so I am glad they are now being looked at closer. I am hoping afew collectors really look into them deeper and something comes to light good or bad?

greg koepp

[dond]

as a footnote to these Detlev showed one today as his Fake of the Week.

[Guest Darrell]

as a footnote to these Detlev showed one today as his Fake of the Week.

Yep and here it is ....

[joelhall]

Why not an RK and a Grand Cross to influence the decision makers?

surely thats simply because you couldnt influence the decision makers regardless. it would be the average disillusioned soldier who you would target - like swing voters with electoral campaigns.

sorry but i beg to differ with you all...

im more swayed by these being post-war east german creations. would it not make more logical sense that after the control of the east by communists and the horrors of the holocaust had come to light not only to a civilian population, but also to a very bitter enemy who now controlled the people, that maybe these were made to shame veterens? perhaps they used left over frames and created the cores as some sort of moral justice to former soldiers, ss, sailors, pilots etc, in the new part of the soviet union? a bit like white flowers given to conchies in world war 1? the morale of right wing folk wouldnt just have been something to crush before may '45 and it would affirm in peoples minds just what their german 'heroes' had done in the name of the reich.

just my opinion but i think it makes a little more sense than being for wartime propaganda - that would only further enrage germans on the eastern front who were fighting a 'sub-species' and cared not whether they were committing 'crimes' (as they saw it) against them. far more demoralising for a defeated enemy, especially after losing to an inferior enemy.

kicking them when theyre down so to speak...

[SKY MARSHAL]

The cross " FUR RAUB UND MORD " is disputable as it is for certain not known, whether was issued such in Leningrad in time WWII. Only I can tell, that supporters and at the given cross suffice opponents.

The given crosses, have appeared rather recently. Why it was not known about crosses "1941" earlier?

IMHO: I think, as is not confirmed documentary from archives of the Ministry of Defence and other sources, is fiction.

Edited March 23, 2008 by SKY MARSHAL

[joelhall]

posted on warrelics.eu by dimas in response to my post:

Hi Joel,

Firstly I want to tell you that this example is real from the war time. Because the pictures made from one example from russian archive. I have somewhere the picture of original file to that cross from archive. I will look to that in nearest future in my pictures archive.

this would be very interesting if something came to light to show that these were produced at the time and place they are reported to have been.

however despite a further post in reply to my statement about using merely the item and logic:

The life in blockaded Leningrad was also out of normal human logic.

... i still find it hard that within a blockaded front line city ALL logic would fly out the reason, and such a ridiculous plan would be used. perhaps im wrong in assuming that these were east german, but i still stand by my opinion at the moment that these were post war, and for the reason stated. it all seems more than a fanciful idea that this would ever have any effect. also what would be the point of burying them? it would appear to be a seriously badly thought out plan of propaganda!!

[Chris Boonzaier]

... i still find it hard that within a blockaded front line city ALL logic would fly out the reason, and such a ridiculous plan would be used. ............................ also what would be the point of burying them? it would appear to be a seriously badly thought out plan of propaganda!!

Thats my thoughts condensed into 2 lines :-)

[SKY MARSHAL]

joelhall Whether there are for you documentary certificates of manufacture in the blocked Leningrad of crosses " FUR RAUB UND MORD "?

Without Stalin's sanction such manufacture was impossible in any purposes. If you will give me written proofs with Stalin's resolution, I with you shall agree.

Edited March 23, 2008 by SKY MARSHAL

[Chris Boonzaier]

I think he means someone on another forum claimed to have seen the documents but he himself does not believe it.

best

Chris

[SKY MARSHAL]

I think he means someone on another forum claimed to have seen the documents but he himself does not believe it.

best

Chris

I apologize at me with the English language poorly. I translate through Magic Gooddy. Difficulties of translation with Russian on English and back. I can tell, that would not see any document which confirmed manufacture EK "1941". By the way I nickname on warrelics.eu same as well as here SKY MARSHAL, and Dimas is other person.

You understand me?

best

Dmitri

Edited March 23, 2008 by SKY MARSHAL

[joelhall]

haha wow what did i miss?

yeah im waiting too, it would be good if there is some evidence to back up the story. my idea is the the only logical conclusion i can come up with IF this are in fact genuine. it just sems that these were intended more as a post war insult to a battle than as a very odd (to say the least) attempt at demoralising the germans.

[SKY MARSHAL]

haha wow what did i miss?

yeah im waiting too, it would be good if there is some evidence to back up the story. my idea is the the only logical conclusion i can come up with IF this are in fact genuine. it just sems that these were intended more as a post war insult to a battle than as a very odd (to say the least) attempt at demoralising the germans.

Your reasons are completely incorrect, you were not in the blocked Leningrad, and I talked to many inhabitants of this city who have taken out.

The idea at them was one--------> TO SURVIVE.

And so I shall tell what to be engaged in knickknacks (manufacture of bad awards), at them it was simple not neither time, nor opportunities.

I think that the given crosses (1941) which are not confirmed with serious documents, are fiction.

[joelhall]

er... think that language barrier might be breaking down again

that was kind of my point:)

[SKY MARSHAL]

er... think that language barrier might be breaking down again

that was kind of my point:)

Try learn Russian language, and then we shall talk to you also I above you too I shall have a laugh.

[joelhall]

Try learn Russian language, and then we shall talk to you also I above you too I shall have a laugh.

да

плохо пробуйте это!

...как было это?

[SKY MARSHAL]

да

плохо пробуйте это!

...как было это?

As spoke Lenin: "To study, study and once again to study." Really as my English badly looks?

Как говорил Ленин: "Учиться, учиться и еще раз учиться." Учите Русский язык. Пока вам даже переводчик мало помогает.

Edited March 25, 2008 by SKY MARSHAL

[Stogieman]

Gentlemen, the purpose of the discussion is knowledge and the attainment thereof. We really don't need to chuckle over language barriers, do we? Thanks. Spasibo. Merci. Vielen Dank.

[joelhall]

i dont think it did THAT bad a job;)

[joelhall]

Gentlemen, the purpose of the discussion is knowledge and the attainment thereof. We really don't need to chuckle over language barriers, do we? Thanks. Spasibo. Merci. Vielen Dank.

sorry:)

joel

[SKY MARSHAL]

Gentlemen, the purpose of the discussion is knowledge and the attainment thereof. We really don't need to chuckle over language barriers, do we? Thanks. Spasibo. Merci. Vielen Dank.

I am sorry dear moderator.

[Mike]

I'm just glad nobody posted that old --

" It's Greek to me" saying ..bad enough I own a Restaurant , the Greek jokes get old fast

[Mike]

Here?s an example that I bought from a Gent in Germany a few years ago. I?ve heard ?rumblings? about these for years and since it was cheap , I bought it as a ?curiosity? item . My example also has a slightly lower ?R? like the one Gordon just posted and to tell you the truth , I know mine's a fake?it?s got to be. The construction is too good (multi-piece, nice finish ,tight hinge etc). And that fake silver finish with the Black washed age shadows always raises a flag before I look at any other details

But something tells me that at some point the Russians did make these.

The Soviet Propaganda machine was in overdrive ..and we shouldn?t dismiss something as ridiculous simply because we are judging it by today?s standards. Consider some of the wacked out Propaganda Items we (the Allies) , and the Germans produced -- ?

Postage Stamps with Hitler?s Head being a Skull ?

<a href="http://www.psywarrior.com/Cornflakes2.html" target="_blank">http://www.psywarrior.com/Cornflakes2.html</a>

Pornographic radio programs?

<a href="http://www.psywar.org/cripps.php" target="_blank">http://www.psywar.org/cripps.php</a>

Fake Cigarette Papers ?

QUOTE --?One disguise which appealed to me-as a non-smoker- was a wafer-paper version which was packed inside a well-known German make of cigarette papers for smokers who `rolled their own'. In the P.T. handbook, as in the Hymn book and the time-tables, the first few pages were identical copies of the German original. In the cigarette packets too, the first papers were genuine cigarette papers. It was only when you got further inside all of these `covers' that our `health instructions' made their appearance.?

<a href="http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:4UVb_...;cd=3&gl=us" target="_blank">http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:4UVb_...;cd=3&gl=us</a>

Propaganda Medals or Coins/Plaques were common during WW1 and I?m sure the ?lesson? was remembered during WW2. Here are a few examples including the well known Lusitania ?Medal? ?

<a href="http://ansmagazine.com/spring06/cavall.html" target="_blank">http://ansmagazine.com/spring06/cavall.html</a>

Goebbels even went as far as creating his own Nazi-sponsored German propaganda swing band (Charlie and his Orchestra) British listeners heard the band?s ?re-written? versions of popular songs every Wednesday and Saturday at around 9 pm.

Here?s a site where you can hear them ---

<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_and_his_Orchestra" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_and_his_Orchestra</a>

By our standards today ..much of this sounds laughable and it?s hard to believe that any Country would seriously endorse any of these programs ..but , it was a different world 60 years ago and ..I can see them doing it.

Without a doubt , many Factories in Leningrad were working right through the Siege ..PPS43?s were being produced as well as M36 Helmets being refurbished etc.

I honestly don?t think stamping out 500+ simple one piece EK?s wouldn?t be a big deal for a Factory mass-producing stamped Machine Gun Parts.

Given the ?quality? of WW2 Soviet factory production in Leningrad (using the PPS43 as an example) ..I?m sure it would have been a one piece , cheaply made crude Cross meant for a one-time use. I'm also not so sure about 2 classes being made ..one Class would do the job.

They wouldn't be trying to fool anyone ..they wanted to get a message across

The question is ..what they were made for. Could they have been ?pinned? to German Soldiers killed by Partisans behind the lines as a Terror ?tool? ? (like a calling card)

One Collector thought they could have been a fund raising ?token? given out the way that ?TO HELMET DER KAISER? Cross was in WW1 (I doubt it)

The only explanation that?s plausible to me would be the Terror Tool idea ..selectively placed on murdered Soldiers behind the Lines ..the only problem is , we have never seen or read anything about that ever being done.

Maybe the program never got off the ground...hopefully someday something will turn up in the archives .

BTW guys ..these are just my feelings , I'm sure everyone will have their own opinion on them. I'm just trying to keep an open mind

I posted that 4 months ago and , still feel the same way since I have not seen any proof either way.

I have a 3 ? binder full of Soviet Propaganda leaflets and there?s one common theme that keeps popping up ..the Iron Cross . To them , it seemed to symbolize the German Army , and it shows up quite a bit.

From what I?ve read about East Germany ?they went out of their way to ignore anything about the War, they were not even actively trying to convict or find War Criminals. They just wanted to move on as if it never happened ..so I doubt they?d go out of their way to produce these and ?upset? the locals

Someone once told me that ..If you really want to "See" what it was like and understand or get a feel for History of a certain era ..you must first examine the attitudes and mentality of the people involved at the time ...if you don't , nothing will ever make sense.

With all the fellow Collectors we have in Russia today ..I'd have thought one of them would have been able to get into those files and research this ..the answer is out there somewhere

[joelhall]

even so, i fail to see how much that is going to affect soldiers hurrying to pick up id tags, to think of removing or reading an ek1 to read the back on the off chance that it might say something. theres no p.t.o. on the front after all. and as for arms being produced and helmets refurbished, these were things vital to the defence, and survival of the people in the city. this is different than items produced for propaganda in britain. yes there was the blitz, but were comparing a whole country to one city (blockaded at that!), the whole of britain takes up a far larger space and you didnt have the same effect as on a city which was cut off, meaning their (far less) resources were far too important to spend time, materials and man-hours on a very odd attempt at breaking german morale. its hard to see how they had the means duing that time, let alone people willing to carry out the work in such a stressful time, where primitive survival needs were far more important in everyones minds.

the other point is without time and means to create machine parts to produce these crosses, when there were more important needs to be conidered first, i havent seen any examples of... well, the very tacky examples you would expect at best!

however i should point out this attatchment on the wr thread, by dimas:

http://warrelics.eu/forum/german-third-rei...-crosses-2.html

hopefully there could be something coming to light. until then im going to stand in my belief these are post war communist made, as even the best attempts to explain this being made in '41 seem somewhat shaky at best.