Jump to content


Photo

King George V.I. CD and 2 bars


  • Please log in to reply
46 replies to this topic

#21 Laurence Strong

Laurence Strong

    Moderator

  • Moderator
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4,118 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 17:12

Very nice. I have never seen one of those bars. Thanks for posting :cheers:

#22 TacHel

TacHel

    Russian Federation Host

  • Moderator
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5,391 posts
  • Location:Montreal, Canada

Posted 17 March 2012 - 17:52

The GVI CD was only awarded for a short while. It is impossible for anybody to have received a CD bar with a King's crown.

The above statement made in a previous post is not correct. While not common there are many examples of GVI CDs with KC clasp. In fact I have two in my personal collection.

Ed


Sailor Ed, sorry, but to me, from experience, after what I've been told and found in records, your set on the picture cannot exist as such, it is a mathematical impossibility. The only explanation I can come to is that already produced examples of KC bars were used until exhaustion of stocks, but for your fellow to have received one 10 years after a GVIR CD, sorry, but I find that verging on the impossible. Your fellow should have an Efficiency Medal and a GVIR CD with no bar, that would make sense, the rack on the pic does not.

The Colonial Permanent Forces LSGC medal was introduced in 1909 for NCOs and men, it was replaced by the Canadian Efficiency Medal in December 1931. The Canadian Forces Decoration (CD) superceded all other awards on 15 December 1949 and was first awarded on 1 September 1951 with GVIR and only until 1954 when the EIIR version came out. So it was only awarded for a maximum of 3 1/2 years with the GVIR effigy. This makes the award to anybody of a KC bar impossible unless exhausting old stock which I find extremely difficult to even imagine, its too easy to remelt them. Seems more likely they were sold and merchants simply slapped them on existing sets...

Considering years of service against the Efficiency Medal (up to 12 years) or a bar (up to 6 years) to it (not already awarded) counted against the CD, any eligible member to a GVIR CD, if presented the medal at the very first investiture on 1951, could not have acquired an additional 10 years for a bar in those 3 1/2 years. Mathematically, the first ever possible recipient of a bar to a CD would've occured in 1962!!!

I am unaware of any account, written or oral, stating the C.D. could physically replace previously awarded LSGC awards, by that I mean the Efficiency Medal would be physically removed from the rack and replaced by a CD with bar(s). As a matter of fact, quite the opposite, I started mounting medals while stationed in Moose Jaw in the early 80s and my mentor in the trade was the retired wartime RSM of the Sask Dragoons. He had the EM with 2 bars and a CD with no bar. I mounted dozens and dozens of sets from the Prairies in my 5 years there and it was always as such. Same when I was in the Maritimes. I mounted medals for over 20 years, this rule was omnipresent. The same principle applied to the Efficiency Decoration, just in case the old chap had been commissioned from the ranks, still impossible.

If I am incorrect, I would (truly) love to see old regs concerning this. But my personnal experience and knowledge of regs tell me that no KC CD bar was EVER issued.

Edited by TacHel, 17 March 2012 - 17:57 .


#23 jeffskea

jeffskea

    Regular Member

  • Silver Membership
  • PipPip
  • 178 posts
  • Location:BC, Canada

Posted 17 March 2012 - 18:25

Just a small note to clarify - there were two paths of long service medals that led to the CD - Permanent/Reg Force and Part Time/Reserve -

For Permanent Forces - the Colonial Forces of the Empire Beyond the Seas LS&GC was replaced by the Canadian Army Long Service and Good Conduct Medal and then the CD for all Reg Force NCO's - Permanent officers receiving no long service recognition until the CD came out.

For Militia/Reserve - The Colonial Auxilliary Forces Decoration and Long Service Medal were replaced by the Efficiency Decoration (officers) and Efficiency Medal (enlisted) respectively, and then the CD.

I agree with Tac Hel that by regulations the King's Crown was not possible but I'm sure stranger things happened - again the theory that he may have been commissioned from a Permanent NCO to Officer and felt he deserved recognition for his long service once the CD was established and open to both officers and enlisted - not authorized of course but maybe one of those personal alteration preferences that occasionally occur.

Jeff

Edited by jeffskea, 17 March 2012 - 18:34 .


#24 jeffskea

jeffskea

    Regular Member

  • Silver Membership
  • PipPip
  • 178 posts
  • Location:BC, Canada

Posted 17 March 2012 - 19:15

Also I wonder could there have been a statute when the CD was instituted that authorized retroactive service before 1939 to be recognized for permanent officers? Technically if that was the case an officer commissioned in 1930 and serving in 1952 would be entitled to a G.VI. CD with KC clasp. I would be interested to see some pre-post war serving perm officers, like Lt. Gen E.L.M. Burns or Gen Guy Simmonds, and see what clasps they have on their CD's.

Anyhow the BWM and CD from Ed's group will be named, so maybe he knows the story behind the recipient?

Edited by jeffskea, 17 March 2012 - 19:16 .


#25 Sailor Ed

Sailor Ed

    Basic Member

  • Basic Membership
  • 7 posts
  • Location:Canada

Posted 17 March 2012 - 19:42

Quite possibly an elected award. When the CD was introduced in 1950 those working toward LS medals requiring longer periods of service were allowed to opt for the CD instead but they had to have been serving prior to the start of WW2.

Ed

#26 TacHel

TacHel

    Russian Federation Host

  • Moderator
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5,391 posts
  • Location:Montreal, Canada

Posted 17 March 2012 - 21:46

Jeffskea and Sailor Ed,

We're all in agremment... :o (I think)... Quite an achievement in itself! ;)

Like mentioned above, only a person awaiting an ED at the very tip of the 20 years of service might've been able to slide a bar within the 3 1/2 years the KC bar could've been available for award. But also as mentioned above, this would've required enlistment in 1929-30 and a waiver for pre 1939 service. Imagine how few people (if any) might've been on the list?

I've seen KC bars before, I think I may even have bought one at a gun show in Saskatoon 25-30 years ago, I'll have to check my "trinkets" box, but never have I seen one mounted on a CD that actually belonged on that CD... :unsure:

Edited by TacHel, 17 March 2012 - 21:57 .


#27 Sailor Ed

Sailor Ed

    Basic Member

  • Basic Membership
  • 7 posts
  • Location:Canada

Posted 18 March 2012 - 02:30

Gentlemen I hate to burst your bubble but my group is exactly correct and perhaps I was unclear in my last post. I did not say anything about men were having already awarded gongs replaced by the CD what I said was the CD replaced all old British type long service medals. Any who enlisted post the cut off date (which was just before the start of WW2) had no choice but had to accept the CD as they were no longer eligible for the former British type awards. Those who had service before the cut off date, which was 1 September 1939, had the option to go for the old type awards or elect to get the CD. Some officers like RCN officers were not eligible for any LS recognition prior to the CD and perhaps army officers of the permanent force fall into that category as well and this will explain the next bit of my post.

Anyway if you care to look at General Orders the first listing for the CD is GO198 (1950) and in that GO there are 24 General Officers officers who received the second clasp to their CD - so a KG CD with 2 KC clasps. Most of the subsequent CD GO's (prior to 1953) also have clasps awarded to the KG CD.

So while not common there are many instances of a KC clasp to a GVI CD. I hope that clarifies it?

Ed

#28 jeffskea

jeffskea

    Regular Member

  • Silver Membership
  • PipPip
  • 178 posts
  • Location:BC, Canada

Posted 18 March 2012 - 02:54

Thanks for clarifying that Ed, makes a lot more sense now :)

Jeff

Edited by jeffskea, 18 March 2012 - 02:55 .


#29 TacHel

TacHel

    Russian Federation Host

  • Moderator
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5,391 posts
  • Location:Montreal, Canada

Posted 18 March 2012 - 12:23

Actually, yes, great info! :)

#30 Laurence Strong

Laurence Strong

    Moderator

  • Moderator
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4,118 posts

Posted 18 March 2012 - 12:35

This has been interesting :cheers:

#31 jeffskea

jeffskea

    Regular Member

  • Silver Membership
  • PipPip
  • 178 posts
  • Location:BC, Canada

Posted 18 March 2012 - 18:57

Good discussion, always something new to learn with medals :)

Found an excellent resource on the CMP website under DH&R publications - the history of the Canadian Forces Decoration by Christopher McCreery, MVO - downloadable in PDF or viewable online:

http://www.cmp-cpm.f...cfd-dfc-eng.asp

Jeff

#32 jeffskea

jeffskea

    Regular Member

  • Silver Membership
  • PipPip
  • 178 posts
  • Location:BC, Canada

Posted 18 March 2012 - 19:50

Just reading through this fascinating history on Canadian long service medals - regarding the CD clasp in question - the KC design was actually issued until 1957 apparently - initially the sewing holes on the clasp were too small for a needle to fit so they had to make the alterations on future clasps. This may help to confirm that Ed's CD and clasp was one of the first issued in 1950. Interesting stuff.

Jeff

#33 jeffskea

jeffskea

    Regular Member

  • Silver Membership
  • PipPip
  • 178 posts
  • Location:BC, Canada

Posted 18 March 2012 - 19:55

Suppose I should read the entire book before posting, but also reading that one reason some pre-1939 personnel still serving in the '50's opted for the CD instead of their old service specific medals - was the shortened service required and the possible attraction of post-nominals :)

It is a very complete resource that answers everything.

Edited by jeffskea, 18 March 2012 - 20:05 .


#34 Michael Johnson

Michael Johnson

    Old Contemptible

  • Old Contemptible
  • 1,671 posts
  • Location:Oakville, Canada West

Posted 03 April 2012 - 20:38

I am unaware of any account, written or oral, stating the C.D. could physically replace previously awarded LSGC awards, by that I mean the Efficiency Medal would be physically removed from the rack and replaced by a CD with bar(s).


This my tie into a family mystery. My uncle was Queen's Rangers, then joined 400 Squadron when it was formed in the mid-1930s. He joined the Active R.C.A.F. in 1939, and went Permanent Force in 1945. His medals, as given me by my aunt as mounted are: CVSM, War Medal, 1953 Coronation, CD (first type). Thus I was amazed to find in his service record that he was awarded the Efficiency Medal in 1934. My aunt vaguely remembered him wearing a green ribbon on his uniform.

His record of service is confusing as his Army service is variously reported, including Cadet service. I'm not sure he had enough service for an Efficiency in 1934, but there is no annotation of the award being cancelled. There was anothe William Hamilton who served in 400 Sqn. but he was Permanent Force, so would not qualify for the Efficiency. It looks like they reckoned his service from 1939, and so awarded him a CD in 1951. He was killed in an accident in 1957, just prior to retirement, so no clasp.

#35 Gunney

Gunney

    Member

  • Basic Membership
  • Pip
  • 12 posts
  • Location:Moncton NB. Canada

Posted 22 April 2013 - 11:17

Hello Forum Members

 

Just new to the Forum and now just getting a chance to read some of the posts and as the Canadian Forces Decorations are my collecting theme, I can provide some information on jeffskea original post on W.O.2 G.F. Finn CD,

 

SC-90057 WO1 GF FINN awarded his CD on November 5 1951

SC-90057 WO2 GF FINN awarded his first clasp April 16, 1962

 

Most likely his 2nd clasp was awarded sometime in the early Spring April-May 1972, hope this helps

 

Gunney

      



#36 Mervyn Mitton

Mervyn Mitton

    Honorary Member

  • Regional Administrator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,780 posts
  • Location:Umhlanga. STH. AFRICA

Posted 22 April 2013 - 13:46

Gunney  -  Brian and I would like to welcome you to GMIC.   We will look forward to hearing about - and seeing pieces, from your collection.  Mervyn



#37 jeffskea

jeffskea

    Regular Member

  • Silver Membership
  • PipPip
  • 178 posts
  • Location:BC, Canada

Posted 22 April 2013 - 15:23

Hi Gunney,

 

Thanks very much for confirming the dates of WO1 Finn's CD's and welcome as well :) I did a bit of research on his service number as well and the "C" designator seems to indicate he joined in Military District 3 - Eastern Ontario and South Western Quebec, and I believe he may have been born in Montreal.



#38 peter monahan

peter monahan

    Britain & Canada Moderator

  • Moderator
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,660 posts

Posted 22 April 2013 - 16:33

Jeff

 

The census records for Quebec are not quite as easy to navigate as some others but they're not bad and there are some very helpful people on the genealogy web sites for Quebec, if you wanted to go that route to get more info. on WO Finn.  There is an 'F Finn' listed on the 1901 census for Quebec, living in

         Montréal (City/Cité) Saint-Laurent (Ward/Quartier), Montréal (city/cité), Quebec

 

 

Peter



#39 jeffskea

jeffskea

    Regular Member

  • Silver Membership
  • PipPip
  • 178 posts
  • Location:BC, Canada

Posted 22 April 2013 - 16:36

Thanks Peter, that is great I will see what I can find :)

 

Jeff


Edited by jeffskea, 22 April 2013 - 16:37 .


#40 Michael Johnson

Michael Johnson

    Old Contemptible

  • Old Contemptible
  • 1,671 posts
  • Location:Oakville, Canada West

Posted 22 April 2013 - 20:59


I am unaware of any account, written or oral, stating the C.D. could physically replace previously awarded LSGC awards, by that I mean the Efficiency Medal would be physically removed from the rack and replaced by a CD with bar(s). As a matter of fact, quite the opposite, I started mounting medals while stationed in Moose Jaw in the early 80s and my mentor in the trade was the retired wartime RSM of the Sask Dragoons. He had the EM with 2 bars and a CD with no bar. I mounted dozens and dozens of sets from the Prairies in my 5 years there and it was always as such. Same when I was in the Maritimes. I mounted medals for over 20 years, this rule was omnipresent. The same principle applied to the Efficiency Decoration, just in case the old chap had been commissioned from the ranks, still impossible.

 

Frank, that is a question I am very interested in, as my uncle (R.C.A.F.) has in his group a GVIR CD.  When I got his service record it states that he was awarded the Efficency Medal in 1934 (He had some Militia service with the Queen's York Rangers before joining 110 Squadron, later 400 City of Toronto).  My late aunt remembers him having a yellow and green ribbon, but the group is as he wore it (WM, CVSM, EIIR Corontation, CD).  Nothing in his service record about the award being cancelled.  There was another Bill Hamilton in the Squadron, but he was permanent R.C.A.F.

 

His service records vary as to his Militia service - I would think that to have qualified in 1934 they must have counted his cadet service.

 

I've been tempted to apply for a replacement, as my theory is that he got the ribbon but was never issued the medal.

 

Michael






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users