9 replies to this topic

[Bison]

Hello!

An arrival in my collection last week.

A DSM awarded to Maitre Canonnier Pierre JEAN of the Cuirassé Le Gaulois, who fought in the narrows of the Dardanelles in March 1915. Le Gaulois was sunk by a German UBoot on the 27 Dec 1917.

Pierre JEAN is gazetted on the 23rd December 1915, and is registered in the Admiralty DSM roll under the number 509. But he is also registered in 1918 (without been gazetted, like all other foreign recipients) under the number 3341.

My assumption is that Pierre Jean has been awarded twice the DSM, but with two medals instead of receiving a clasp, as it is usually mentioned in the roll for the other second attribution. Mistake of the administration?

Please see below the roll where Pierre JEAN is incribed twice and the second time without clasp. I sincerely doubt that two P. Jean were Maitre Canonnier on Le Gaulois.
I suppose the first attribution was for the disastrous attack of the Narrows on the 18 March 1915, and the second time consequently to the lost of the ship on the 27 December 1916.

Another conclusion is that the DSM was issued inscribed to foreigners, unlike a wide spread idea and unlike other British decorations like the DCM or the MM.

Edited by Bison, 30 January 2012 - 18:55 .

[Bison]

The Admiralty roll supporting my assumption of a double attribution:

1915 page :


1918 page where is also Premier Maitre MOZACH, who is the only French awarded twice with a clasp. But I suspect JEAN is the second, but with two medals. Please note that a replacement to a French is also noticed on the 1915 page above, therefore this second nomination is not a replacement, I suppose.

Edited by Bison, 30 January 2012 - 18:44 .

[Chris Boonzaier]

That is indeed a find.... maybe he was listed early and later in the war they listed all folks who had recieved it, listing him a second time.

Best
Chris

[Bison]

I don't think so.

There is a total of 412 French names in the roll between 1915 and 1920. 2 only are listed twice: MOZACH with a clasp (# 3337 & 3794), and JEAN without clasp (# 509 & 3341)...

[Mervyn Mitton]

Bison  -  a most unusual happening.   Not at all uncommon to have a double medal issue - particularly when they
served in different units and both put the name forward.    However, to have a double issue for an important Gallantry Award must
be unusual.   Perhaps the fact that it is to a non British person has allowed this to happen.
I like the   DCM  -  an attractive medal and not common  -  unlike the MM which had well over 140,000 issued.  The othe companion
medal inaugurated at the same time was the DFM - but, this had a very small number.

Just shows how important it is to do research .  Mervyn

[Bison]

Mervyn,

Abbott & Tamplin mention only one British merchant navy sailor, James Moar, as a double DSM medal award. I do not think it is so current for the DSM either for the natives or for the foreigners.

Moreover, P. JEAN has not moved from its unit "Le Gaulois" between the two attributions.There are only two differences: 1. the second first name initial, 2; the rank, which is "Second Maitre" in the first list and "Maitre" in the the second while he has been logically promoted between the two nominations.
This advocates for a second attribution and not a repetition of the first award. But may be I am wrong in my assumption.

Any other advice is really welcome in this research.

Regards
Bison

[Mervyn Mitton]

Hi Bison.   From your point of view it is important that you establish  -  if at all possible  -  if two medals exist.
The reason for this is if two become available - without proof of award - then yours will diminish greatly in value.

I would have thought that the wording of the citation is the all important clue as to whether two separate awrds were made,
or, was it just one that has had a replacement.   Did the Govt. Gazette ever  show awards to non-British people  -  I'm
not sure ?

Try thinking outside of the box   -  the British Embassy - or, nearest Consulate would have been involved in the presentation.
Local newspapers must have covered the event  -  are there any family still in the area ?   These sources could well be
helpful.  Even the French Embassy in London would have been consulted.

Lots of homework for you  -  best of luck and please let us know how you get-on ?    Mervyn

[Bison]

Mervyn,

For sure the London Gazette has published lists of award to foreigners.
Here is the issue for Pierre Jean :


My concern is not about the value of the medal, I don't really care.

The aim of my research is to confirm (or not) that Pierre Jean has been awarded twice the DSM. If it is the case, that means there were two French with a second attribution. Up to know, it is believed there is only one (Premier Maître Mozach) for WW1.

[censlenov]

Here's the naggin thought in my mind.  "Le Gaulois" was sunk Dec of 1916.  Why was an award for Le Gaulois in a 1918 roll.  hmmmmmmm............  A possible scenario though poorly noted in the roll is that the second medal is a replacement for the 1st which went down on the Gaulois.  This is a pretty common scenario and i've seen it in other instances.  Are these the only two dsm rolls to french recipients or are there others?

Cheers
Chris

[Bison]

Chris

Yes, it is possible...

..But if you have a close look in the 1918 roll page (see above), there are other sailors awarded for "Dardanelles" in 1918, some others from Le Charlemagne, sister ship of Le Gaulois who fought also in the Narrows. The replacements are also specifically noticed (see the 1916 page, there is one for a French).

Mozach and Jean are the only two French seamen listed twice in the roll which counts 412 French and more than 5,500 other names, mostly obviously British (and Empire), but also some Italian, Russian, Japanese and others.

Regards

Edited by Bison, 01 February 2012 - 20:07 .