JapanX Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Dubious specimens (let’s call them like that ) Type 1 Unfortunately I don’t have photo of reverse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Type 2 This type has very stable features. The most prominent are 1) letter З in ЗСФСР covered by wreath 2) absence of cotton flowers 3) reverse construction (ridges instead of rivets) 4) number not stamped, but engraved We have clear photos of two such specimens: specimen № 39 and specimen № 42. Allow me again to post obverse and reverse of № 39. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 № 39 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Here comes the screw plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Actually this specimen is known for a long time because it was published by well know russian site “Sobiratel” http://www.sobiratel...edBaner/LRB.htm Here comes the obverse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) Obviously we are talking about two identical specimens. Only today № 39 looks a little bit cleaner Edited May 31, 2012 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Interesting that Sobiratel noted at the bottom of the page that “Photo was granted by Kristoph Steidel-Porent, Slovenia”. Looks like not anymore And now № 42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 № 42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Please note how different is engraving style!!! And no mark Which is actually nice touch, because it shouldn’t be used after 1927 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 № 39 vs. № 42 (obverses) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 № 39 vs. № 42 (reverses) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 № 42 was discussed in this forum 6 years ago and was recognized by members as a fake http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/5329-strange-order-of-the-red-banner/page__st__20 № 39 was recently discussed in WW2 russian forum with same sad result …. http://ww2.ru/forum/index.php?showtopic=1280681 Cheers, Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) P.S. 100% authentic order Enjoy! ;) Edited May 30, 2012 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogul Posted May 30, 2012 Author Share Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) Jesus Christ, where did you get all this stuff. At first, I want to make a small correction on the seal, that you referred to as nice touch, the jewelers stopped putting these in the 30s and we are not talking MonDvor here, who knows what was on their mind. I know the ownership history of my order and it changed a lot of hands during the last 30 years. The order from sobiratel.net now belongs to me, you got that right. I believe that all the specimens we have here are genuine. All the orders must look different, because all of them were done by different jewelers and the engraving style remark here is just ridiculous. Number 42 looks bad, but still it could be just a poor job, I don't think that it should be claimed as a fake right away. I always contact my jeweler to verify the authenticity, he doesn't know much about the orders and stuff, but he sure knows a lot on how the metal ages and when the thing got assembled. How can somebody rant about fakes and stuff if they have nothing to compare it with? JapanX provided us here with all the possible data and it proves my point, now we have a bunch of these orders and they all differ tremendously. How can you pick good from bad at this point? Do you remember a great Roman Polanski movie 9th Gate? Maybe we have the same story here, all of them could be authentic. I question the authenticity only when I can't trace the ownership a few hands back, because it's very strange when something pops right in the air and nobody have seen it before. By the way, I've seen a fake version of this order and it didn't look like any of the presented here. Edited May 30, 2012 by Mogul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) Jesus Christ, where did you get all this stuff. Number 42 looks bad, but still it could be just a poor job Everything is in the eye of beholder As I said before I posted all these materials as additional food for thought to my dear colleagues Nothing more - nothing less. Cheers, Nick Edited May 30, 2012 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogul Posted May 30, 2012 Author Share Posted May 30, 2012 Everything is in the eye of beholder As I said before I posted all these materials as additional food for thought to my dear colleagues Nothing more - nothing less. Cheers, Nick I made no accusations, I'm really grateful for the thing you just did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oleg Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Everything is in the eye of beholder As I said before I posted all these materials as additional food for thought to my dear colleagues Nothing more - nothing less. Cheers, Nick Nick, Mogul is not looking for the eye opener. He is happy in his own world. Let him be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogul Posted May 30, 2012 Author Share Posted May 30, 2012 Nick, Mogul is not looking for the eye opener. He is happy in his own world. Let him be. What is your major malfunction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oleg Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 If I offended you, I apologize. No hard feelings. :beer: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogul Posted May 30, 2012 Author Share Posted May 30, 2012 If I offended you, I apologize. No hard feelings. No hard feelings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedMaestro Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) This has been an interesting debate to watch, as much for the dynamics as the content. Mogul, just want to say, please remember, these guys are trying to help you. In another thread you wrote, "If somebody thinks that my stuff is fake, he should read more books." It would be great if you could 1) tell us which books; 2) post images or relevant passages from said books; and 3) provide detailed images with detailed explanations of what the rest of us should notice in your pieces vs. acknowledged authentic examples. Relying on the ability of your jeweler, the reputation of the dealer, and other "dubious" pieces does not make a solid defense. A detailed debate has a lot of educational value. After all, the purpose of the forum is educational in the end. Nick, thank you for posting those images. It's great how you always have a stream of evidence ready (I'm thinking of a thread about Orders of the Rising Sun 8th class as well). That is a model for how discussions of authenticity should be conducted I'm not going to weigh in on the issue myself, since it is far out of the area of my interest and expertise. I do have a few images to add to the ones Nick provided, however. These two examples were posted on another forum. No comments there on authenticity, as the point was just to show what the order looked like generally. Alex note, these images aren't great to begin with, but they do expand in more detail if you click on them Edited May 30, 2012 by RedMaestro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedMaestro Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) And here is one of the authentic examples Nick posted (right, Nick?) in more detail from an auction catalog. (again, click the image. it's about 1000x800 pixels) Edited May 30, 2012 by RedMaestro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Excellent images Alex Number 71 (73? ) is superb! Others are nothing special... Looks like boring originals Many thanks! Regards, Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oleg Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Out of all the orders posted, I only like SN#86, 109, and the one from Kutsenko book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Out of all the orders posted, I only like SN#86, 109, and the one from Kutsenko book. Right on man! One should never relax with these soviets... What we have here is actually two different number 9!!! One that I posted (post #17) and the other that Alex posted (it has an extra rivet and many others differences (anvil, flowers, star...) that I simply didn't noticed because automatically assume that (since it has 9 on reverse) it is exactly the same specimen). Ain't it nice? Alex specimen looks like a fake made (and pretty well made I must add) after Herfurth specimen ... Or vice versa (hardly though) ... Or they are both fakes Herfurth specimen indeed has some eccentric features. For example form of torch Regards, Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now