Ross Mather Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2014/post-6668-0-71751500-1408302185.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2014/post-6668-0-62908400-1408302218.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2014/post-6668-0-56034100-1408302277.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2014/post-6668-0-81418200-1408302329.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2014/post-6668-0-23498100-1408302352.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2014/post-6668-0-51977900-1408302372.jpg Hello Mervyn. I have recently acquired this truncheon for my collection. The first picture shows 'before' and the rest of the photos 'after' I spent some time cleaning off the grime of a century and a half or two. Unusually long....24 inches, and flush fitted into it, near top just above the arms, is an inserted tacked in brass ring, with stamped letters VR. The letters VR may have been a later addition? as my gut feeling is that this truncheon is a little earlier. The painting has been done by someone very skillful. The arms have supporters both sides of rampant lions. The scroll at the bottom says AIMEZ VERITE. The quartered shield shows 1. Ermine 2. Spread eagle. 3. Spread eagle 4. Three Fleur de Lys. I would value your expert opinion and that of anyone else who may be able to shed any light on its origins. Thanks............Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polsa999 Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 (edited) Hi Ross Found this item for sale, described as a 19th century leather cordite bucket...same coat of arms, there also a large number of items on ebay and at other auctions with the same coat of arms but sadly no indication of where the arms are from.... Edited August 17, 2014 by Polsa999 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Mather Posted August 17, 2014 Author Share Posted August 17, 2014 /Thanks.....How interesting!!! Definitely exactly the same coat of arms. Wonder if anyone can come up with the answer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Mather Posted August 17, 2014 Author Share Posted August 17, 2014 Ive spent ages searching ebay but cant find anything with the same coat of arms? Can you give me an idea please what is on there with the same arms. Thanks..........Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Hello Ross and Polsa. I am sorry to have to tell you that there is a very high probabability that they are fakes. Either East European - or, the unpleasant little Chinese that think we will buy anything. Firstly, the likelyhood of two quite separate items coming-up at the same time is unlikely. The workmanship on both is poor and they are transfers for the decoration. I do not know of these arms and although the British used the Fleur de Lis in a panel until 1802 - the appearance is quite different. These look like halberds. I have checked my book on Latin mottoes - Aimez Loyaulte exists. Love loyalty. : Lord Bolton ; Cowan. Bt.. : Marquess of Winchester. Aimez Verite does not exist. For the truncheon I think the VR and Crown are false - look at the nails ? I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news - may I ask where they were both bought ? Also, members should be aware of these. Mervyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Mather Posted August 19, 2014 Author Share Posted August 19, 2014 Hi again Mervyn. Just got that truncheon out again, and have gone over it with a magnifier (x30). I am of the opinion that this is a genuine piece. Having collected for 45 years....I would not get caught with a fake. As you know, you just cannot replicate real genuine use-age and real age. The multiple minute marks and tiny little chips (not visible to the naked eye) in the paint and wood that really are minuscule and edges of which are obviously of some age. As you know, that can't be 'applied'. False application of age is quite crude and so very obvious. Again, I have studied the paintwork......and it is most definitely, 100% - not a transfer. Under magnification I am able to see the ends of the brush strokes, and there is height to the paint application, and minor nips and nicks in the paint....oil based I think. Needs a lot more research Mervyn, but I am not convinced that its anything other than a period piece. You asked about the 'nails'. They are in fact very small brass tacks.The collector I had it from assures me he has had it in his collection for many years. Will update you when I find out more. It was suggested to me that these items with the same coat of arms, came from the sale of a deceased s country estate. Bye for now.......Ross wishes...........Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Mather Posted August 19, 2014 Author Share Posted August 19, 2014 Polsa (sorry do not know your name). I have scoured ebay for ages but cannot find anything with the same coat of arms. Would you be able to give me a clue please, where I can view these items. Thanks............Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonLMoore Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) Hey Ross, if you do a google image search for "aimez verite" there are indeed a lot of sold ebay and etsy items which crop up with the same coat of arms, leather buckets, mugs, even a money box. Edited August 21, 2014 by SimonLMoore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Mather Posted August 21, 2014 Author Share Posted August 21, 2014 Thanks....yes have found a few bits. What is baffling me is the fact that the arms a re painted and not a transfer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Mather Posted August 21, 2014 Author Share Posted August 21, 2014 Seen enough to convince me its time to negotiate a return of the items that I exchanged for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Mather Posted August 22, 2014 Author Share Posted August 22, 2014 Ah well.....I contacted the German cap collector in Germany who I got this from. I exchanged two (one rare) caps for what I now understand to be a fake truncheon. His reply.......it seems as though it is my fault for not researching it from the emailed photo which he sent to me - before exchange took place. He has refused to return the authentic items that I sent to him and thereby allowing me to return the fake item. All collectors.....just be very careful in dealing with a Mr. Gausmann (cap collector) in Germany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spasm Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Ross Sorry about the bad news. I hate this. We research the stuff we own and buy on an impulse. I also assume most dealers have researched the stuff they are selling or how can they price for buying or selling. So, whether it's from someone's collection (as the seller said he had this in his collection for many years) or from a dealer we rely on their honesty. I know you are all going to say research, research and more research. As I do a bit of painting and drawing myself I know that I could produce things that would take people in, but I choose not to. These people choose to rob others. I've been robbed quite a few times and although I feel like paying them a very personal visit, I stay away from the shows/fairs that have these individuals selling as I wouldn't be able to help myself. You look like you are part of the long arm so stretch that arm out and get your German buddies to have a word or three. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Mather Posted August 22, 2014 Author Share Posted August 22, 2014 We are both from the same profession which to me makes it even worse!!!! I have collected for 45 years and like to think that I am pretty switched on....and yes.....trust means everything to me. I have done many deals from all over the world.......often relying on trust and honesty....especially from colleagues from different countries. My good name would be more important than adding one item to my collection. Sadly, it would seem that not everyone believes in being honourable and honest or doing what is right. I can live with it having to remain with me. My good name remains intact. As a collector, I would hate it for anyone to associate my name as anything but totally honest and completely trustworthy. That obviously does not seem to bother some collectors....and they are very few and far between I'm glad to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spasm Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 What! Another Mr Plod a robber! Crushed, my world is falling apart. Which way do I look now........good grief. I'm off to join the Charlie Brown gang. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Wilkinson Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Having collected police insignia and some associated material for some fifty plus years now I've always been tempted to collect truncheons. In the early days I was "caught out" by a fraudster and ever since that experience has taught me to steer well clear of them and that would be the advice I would give to anyone who contemplates going in that direction. I've no doubt that others would disagree but that is honest my opinion. Dave.Wilkinson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Mather Posted August 23, 2014 Author Share Posted August 23, 2014 I'm not so sure Dave. I agree with you to some degree, but there are still many of good old and genuine truncheons to be had by the new collector from various locations especially in the UK. I hear people say about getting caught out by fakes.....but in reality....I have rarely seen any? I think that mindset may have grown those that were made a couple of decades ago, and advertised for sale in the Police Review. They were so obviously new and sold as such. Its a little like saying to not buy old badges because there are a few re-strikes here and there....but the vast majority are authentic. My problem has arisen dealing with a well known retired police officer hat collector in Germany.....who agreed a swap deal...and who I TRUSTED. We exchanged photos. The photo he sent me, it looked genuine and authentic AND I was assured that it was authentic. He has laid the blame firmly at my door, saying that I should have first researched it from the photo. Not possible as he could not provide full details of the motto etc. Now that the exchange has taken place, and I find his truncheon is not what was first thought......he has basically said to me....'tough...you swapped it'. He has refused point blank to have our exchange items returned to each other. I have emailed him a couple of times but does not afford me the courtesy of a reply. I will sleep soundly at night and live with this bad experience (my first with a collector in Germany) and shrug it off as just one of lifes experiences. If he so desperately needed the Welsh Chief Constables cap he was after....then I hope that he enjoys it being in his collection and website. To me, he will always be...... a man with no integrity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 I can't agree with Dave - truncheons and tipstaves are part of our history - and date back hundreds of years. Without them the Constable could not perform his duties. In recent years these items have appreciated considerably in value - I take part of the blame for that, since my book - published 29 years ago - brought them to the attention of the public. With regard to Ross' truncheon - I could see immediately that it was not correct . I always hate to be the bearer of bad news and in this case sending me the picture would have helped. Ross, you do have means to deal with this man. You are a (retired?) police officer and should write to his nearest Station. I am sure they would be interested - particularly since large numbers of items with these arms are on sale. They are fraudulant and the offence is obtaining money by false pretences. I am sure you will wish to 'grovel' a little for my correct assesment of your piece ? Best wishes Mervyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spasm Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Every time our retired collector in Germany looks at his Welsh Chief Constable's cap, whether on his shelf or his website he can be proud that he stole it. What a tit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Mather Posted August 23, 2014 Author Share Posted August 23, 2014 That made me smile Mervyn ....and, I doff my cap to the 'Master'. I do though disagree, that you or your book are in any way to 'blame' regarding the prices of truncheons and tipstaffs. Before your book was published, little was known about them except for the long and many decades out of print Fenn Clark. You awakened the collectors interests to what was actually out there, if youonly took the time to do a bit of searching. The same can be said even of today. But, I just hope that this post will be a warning to others that without caution, and taking total trust in someone you do not really know, even a collector of 45 years such as myself, can be duped. The vast majority of collectors are good and honourable people, but this does prove a point that there are also some unscrupulous ones too Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Mather Posted August 23, 2014 Author Share Posted August 23, 2014 I am glad to report that my cap is now to be returned next week. I will take great pleasure in returning the painted piece of wood! Lesson learnt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjones Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 Interesting truncheon. I wouldn't have bought it based upon its overall look. I don't recall Victorian truncheons ever looking like this. Sorry also to say the coat of arms looks to be a transfer decal to me (especially in the way some areas are chipped off). Glad to hear you are returning this piece. Don't let this put you off collecting painted truncheons as really most out there are original. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Mather Posted August 30, 2014 Author Share Posted August 30, 2014 Hi. Thank you for your message. I can assure that ....it is painted.....and its not a transfer. I have collected truncheons and British police memorabilia for 45 years, and do have some knowledge...... www.britishpolicehelmet.co.uk ....and took their word of someone that it was original, which later became obvious that it wasnt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevieb108 Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 Hi just joined up to this site. For a bit of information a 19c leather fire bucket bearing this crest and motto recently sold at Gildings Auctions in Lincoln for between 400 - 600 pounds. I have just aquired a mug/tankard with the same on it which is what piqued my interest in the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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