Bill Garvy Posted September 1, 2005 Share Posted September 1, 2005 This just in from my good friend Micha, otherwise known hereabouts as "motorhead". I'd like to solicit the best thinking of you gentlemen regarding the maker of this cross. I say Gro?mann, Micha says Deumer. What say you?By the way, the core is magnetic. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Garvy Posted September 1, 2005 Author Share Posted September 1, 2005 The reverse. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Stimson Posted September 1, 2005 Share Posted September 1, 2005 Man, that's a crisp core! (I say Grossmann.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe campbell Posted September 1, 2005 Share Posted September 1, 2005 i couldn't say whether this is grossman, deumer,or cabernat sauvignon, but it REALLY surprises me thatthe core is magnetic.sure looks like a brass core....nice cross, bill.joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave B Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 I would also say Gro?mannBtw Bill,just for curiousity what does it weigh?Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorhead Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 OK-you all think it's a Grossmann-but why? Just because an identical EK with the magic"11" at the back? George,I know you are a "hardliner" in saying "Grossmann".But please have a look at the frame and at the core....you see the tool markings at the inner,lower 9 o'clock corner? That is looking like two dots? Gentlemen,please have a look at your collections-especially for a "Deumer" core without a blob. You will find the same tool markings again. And of course the same core.....OK-Grossman could have used frames and cores from other producers.....sounds good? Not for me! "Grossmann had made 2nd class EKs-but the core is completely different.Well,let me resize a few pics....Micha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorhead Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 OK,here we start with the twin brother of Bill's EK.If you look closely at the frame and the core you will see they match perfect!Obverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorhead Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 And the reverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorhead Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 Just to complete the reverse,here's the catch and the marking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorhead Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 So fare so good.....so have a look at this one!Looks like Bill's EK,doesn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorhead Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 Close enough? Here's the reverse.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Garvy Posted September 3, 2005 Author Share Posted September 3, 2005 Micha, with all due respect, that's my point exactly. Maker mark "11" would be a Gro?mann, as is shown here on this 2nd Class example. . .Is the above example also a Deumer? My observations have shown little or no similarity between 1st & 2nd Class crosses for many manufacturers. For example, compare a "23", and there is no similarity between their 1st & 2nd Class crosses, in fact, the 1st Class resembles a Souval from the obverse. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorhead Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 Bill,I hope you don't mind that I use some scans of your EK....here are the 3 suspects! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorhead Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 I accept your point,my friend-but let me finish my rocky horror pictureshow.....Here we go.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorhead Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 Same tool,same kind of frame...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorhead Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 one more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorhead Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 Another one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorhead Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 And the date-this comparisation was made between my "11" and an "L/11" without the blob! The core with the blob has got atotally different frame....(I'm not shure that all of the "Deumers" are following this rule) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Garvy Posted September 3, 2005 Author Share Posted September 3, 2005 Indeed, Micha, the similarities are indeed striking, which lends greater probability of the shared frames and cores hypothesis you alluded to earlier. You have certainly answered the question of when is a Deumer not a Gro?mann. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorhead Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 I hope it's so easy......OK,I belive it's a "Deumer",but what can we say for shure? The frame and the core are manufactured by "Deumer".And we know that there are KvK's made by "Deumer" with the same pin and hinge.But who has it put together? Who knows........ .Another funny thing-you all knows the EKs with these big"sunburst" screwback? I've seen one with the same core and frame like our "suspects" here....but this is another vstory!Regards Micha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Stimson Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 "But please have a look at the frame and at the core....you see the tool markings at the inner,lower 9 o'clock corner? That is looking like two dots?"Can you highlight this for me?Also, don't forget that Godet and Zimmermann EKs are virtually identical. Identical crosses (much more identical than Grossmann/Deumers, which have different pins, in fact), but different makers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorhead Posted September 4, 2005 Share Posted September 4, 2005 George,are we shure that the Godet/Zimmermann EKs have really different makers?They have got different markings,but they are nearly identical.So who made them? Or have both companies shared their tools? Please don't misunderstand me-of course they are two different companies,but I think one of them has bought the EKs from the other.Do you agree with me that some of the parts(core and frame) from the "11" where made by "Deumer"? Look at post 15(the dots at the frame).Or do you say"close,but not matching"?Anyway-this is not a crusade for "Deumer".......Micha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Stimson Posted September 6, 2005 Share Posted September 6, 2005 Oh, it's very possible that the "11s" were manufactured by Deumer. I guess it's a matter of terminology. Is the maker of the award the company who actually made it? Or is it the company who put their mark on it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Stimson Posted September 6, 2005 Share Posted September 6, 2005 Maybe instead of "maker" the terms "provider" or "distributor" are more apt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorhead Posted September 6, 2005 Share Posted September 6, 2005 That's a good point-who put the "11" on the EK? When I remember right,there are war merrit crosses marked L/11 with the kind of pin we find at the "11" EKs.I would like to have one of these here to compare it with my "Deumer/Grossmann"But the WMC have been never my point of interest-so I haven't a single one.....It's absolutely possibly that "Deumer" sold a lot of parts to other companies-A friend of mine has got a '39 EK with one of these "sunburst screwbacks" in his collection-this EK shows the same "Deumer"core and the same frame as the "11" in mine and Bill's collection.So it doesn't matter what ever we will pull out of the dark,there will be always a"but".......I say "Deumer",but this isn't really new for you-but I also know that my(or all "Deumer" believers")theorie isn't waterproofed!So at the moment I try to find one of these WMC's to have a closer look at the hinge/catch and the pin.......just to find matching toolmarks.Maybe it's wasted time,but this is one of the things that makes collecting iron crosses so interesting for me!Micha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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