Guest Rick Research Posted June 25, 2009 Posted June 25, 2009 I have been mulling over a project-- since Daniel has no WW1 award rolls for me to type at the moment-- of producing a computerized Master List of KGL Medals, documenting what collections and sales they came out of for a "genealogy" of provenances/attributions. From some of the other medals seen here at GMIC, can do that back to the 1870s. That might help reunite split pairs et cetera by knowing what actually still IS Out There. I have a feeling that the numbers ISSUED at the end of the 1840s are not at all close to the fraction REMAINING IN EXISTENCE TODAY.If anyone has sales catalogs from WHENEVER showing any, please post the medal details including catalog date, item number, and sale price here. Actual scans of the pages would be best. I will add them to my accumulating Master List and when it is large enough, will post it here at GMIC. I am always stunned to read that 17--or 3-- of any specific battle bars were issued to surviving veterans of a unit... 160 years ago. But how many STILL EXIST? Herr Finkam stated in 1901 that there had only been a total of 1,230 issued TOTAL... so how many HUNDREDS survive? :catjava:
Ralph Posted June 25, 2009 Posted June 25, 2009 Hi Rick,If you have not seen it check this out - Collection of KGL Medals sold in 2003 http://www.dnw.co.uk/medals/auctionarchive...9&action=Go
Guest Rick Research Posted June 25, 2009 Posted June 25, 2009 I never paid any attention to 'em until the Traveling Museum Collective and you got my attention. I don't "link" well since apparently most (haven't tried this one) formats used by online dealers do not "read" on my computer and cause technical problems I've learned to live without.This is the sort of thing I'm working on:
Ralph Posted June 25, 2009 Posted June 25, 2009 Have noted Follwing :Gaskell Collection, Auction Glendining's May 1911C. Sprenger 1st Line Batt. K.G.L.Clasps Albuhera; Salamanca; Vittoria; St. Sebastian; Nivelle, NiveIn the Dr. A.A Payne Collection, (1911) following medals recorded:G.Meyer, Cort. 3rd Hussars K.G.L. (Later Lt. Genl George Meyer)Clasp Sahagun and BeneventeJ.J. Beyer Surgn. Brunsk. Oels Lt. Infy.Clasps Corunna, AlbuheraRudolphus Pringle, Capt. 2nd Lt. Bn. K.G.L.Clasps Albuhera, Salamanca, Vittoria, St. SebastianC. Schlaeger, Bombr, Arty & Lieut. 5th Line Bn. K.G.L. (Later Major Charles Schlaeger K.H.)Clasps Talavera, Busaco, Fuentes D'Onor, Salamnca, VittoriaL.S. Schulz, Cornet 1st HUssars, K.G.L. (later Lieut. Leopold Sigismond Schulz)Clasps Talavera, Busaco, Fuentes D'Onor, Salamanca, Vittoria, ToulouseWilhelm Bergmann, 2nd Lt. Btn, K.G.L.Claps Albuhera, Salamnca, Vittoria, St. Sebastian, Nivelle, NiveHe also had Anton Bartel's 10 Clasp MGS but you have details on that already 1
Guest Rick Research Posted June 25, 2009 Posted June 25, 2009 Link worked well-- I did a copy paste of the text and will add that to my Master List, then go back and fill in the missing data that doesn't show on the auction page. Thanks Ralph! Hey! There's Surgeon Beyer http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=37076from the Payne Collection 1911!!! :jumping:
Les Posted June 25, 2009 Posted June 25, 2009 (edited) I have been mulling over a project-- since Daniel has no WW1 award rolls for me to type at the moment-- of producing a computerized Master List of KGL Medals, documenting what collections and sales they came out of for a "genealogy" of provenances/attributions. From some of the other medals seen here at GMIC, can do that back to the 1870s. That might help reunite split pairs et cetera by knowing what actually still IS Out There. I have a feeling that the numbers ISSUED at the end of the 1840s are not at all close to the fraction REMAINING IN EXISTENCE TODAY.If anyone has sales catalogs from WHENEVER showing any, please post the medal details including catalog date, item number, and sale price here. Actual scans of the pages would be best. I will add them to my accumulating Master List and when it is large enough, will post it here at GMIC. I am always stunned to read that 17--or 3-- of any specific battle bars were issued to surviving veterans of a unit... 160 years ago. But how many STILL EXIST? Herr Finkam stated in 1901 that there had only been a total of 1,230 issued TOTAL... so how many HUNDREDS survive? Rick,That figure may only be off more than a tad.The Waterloo medal was supposed to be awarded to every soldier who fought at Waterloo -and- Ligny. That would mean each KGL member who served at Waterloo was eligible for at least -one- medal. The KGL was a fairly large organization, and for Waterloo alone, there would be a large number of names (and theoretically a medal or bar for each of them). The Waterloo medal roll (which should include those who fought at Ligny, Quatre Bras also) might be a good to look over, and to think over the direction of the project.Les Edited June 25, 2009 by Les
Guest Rick Research Posted June 25, 2009 Posted June 25, 2009 Not doing Waterloo Medals, unless mentioned as being in groups with MGS Medals, or loose ones to officers issued MGS Medals that have gone astray in split groups.Aside from that, ONLY doing MGS Medals-- issued to survivors at the end of the 1840s.Somebody else can do loose Waterloos to dead guys and other ranks! Right now, thanks to Ralph's help, have 17 of the 134 MGS Medals to KGL OFFICERS, which is a darned nice percentage for not much sweat so far.
Les Posted June 25, 2009 Posted June 25, 2009 (edited) Not doing Waterloo Medals, unless mentioned as being in groups with MGS Medals, or loose ones to officers issued MGS Medals that have gone astray in split groups.Ok. You were commenting on KGL medals, but didn't say it would be limited to MGS relateld groups or awards. In case you're (or anyone else for that matter is) interested, Beamish's history of the KGL is on-line, at "google books" and can be downloaded for free. Might be of interest from time to time perhaps?http://books.google.com/books?id=AL98VGnPq...lient=firefox-aLes Edited June 25, 2009 by Les
Ralph Posted June 26, 2009 Posted June 26, 2009 Some MoreF.Degen, 5th Line Bn. KGL 4 Clasps Talavera, Busaco,Ciudad Rodrigo,SalamncaGlendining?s 22 May 1963 ?20.00Hermann Ottens 2nd Hussars KGL 1 Clasp BarossaGlendining?s 17 Apr 1964 ?8.10/-Justus Bode 3rd Hussars KGL 1 Clasp SahagunGlendining?s 17 Apr 1964 ?4.10/-Ludolph Holzhausen 5th Line Bn. KGL 7 Clasps Talavera,Busaco, Fuentes D?Onor, Salamanca, Vittoria, Nivelle, NiveGlendining?s 25 Nov 1987 ?330L. Wuster, Sjt. 2nd Lt. Dgns. KGL 3 Clasps Salamanca, Vittoria, Toulouse + Waterloo MedalSotheby?s 27 Jul 1979Christopher Schulz 5th Line Bn KGL 9 Clasps Talavera, Busaco, Fuentes D?Onor, Ciudad Rodrigo, Salamnca, Vittoria, St. Sebastian, Nivelle, NiveSotheby?s 21 Mar 1979Christian Ellperoth 1st Hussars KGL 9 Clasps Talavera, Busaco, Fuentes D?Onor, Ciudad Rodrigo, Salamanca, Vittoria, Pyrenees,Nivelle, OrthesGlendining?s 22 Oct 1970 ?60.00J.Riebert 2nd Lt. Dgns. KGL 1 Clasp BarossaGlendining?s 22 Oct 1970 ?30.00 also Glendining?s 25 Sep 1961 ?19.00Henry Rahrig 1st Lt. Bn. KGL 6 Clasps Albuhera, Salamanca, Vittoria, St. Sebastian, Nivelle, NiveGlendning?s 22 Oct 1970 ?36.00Heinrich Bernack 2nd Lt Bn KGL 4 Clasps Albuhera, Salamnca, Vittoria, St. SebastianGlendining?s 22 Oct 1970 ?29.00Christian Kemmena 2nd Line Bt. KGL 9 Clasps Talavera, Busaco, Fuente D?Onor, Ciudad Rodrigo, Salamanca, Vittoria, St. Sebastian, Nivelle, NiveGlendining?s 22 Oct 1970 ?35.00E.C. Roderwald 1st Hussars KGL 4 Clasps Talavera, Salamanca, Vittoria, ToulouseSotheby?s 28 Feb 1985 ?180Herman Orthens 2nd Hussars KGL 1 Clasp BarossaGlendining?s 17 Mar 1982H. Hillman 1st Lt. Bn KGL 1 Clasp Albuhera + Waterloo MedalGlendining?s 30 Jun 1982Eckhard Bohne 2nd Lt. Bn KGL 4 Clasps Albuhera, Salamnca, Vittoria, St. SebastianGlendining?s 6 Oct 1982Ludolph Benning, Corp. 2nd Line BN. KGL 8 Clasps Talavera, Busaco, Ciudad Rodrigo, Salamanca, Vittoria, St. Sebastian, Nivelle, NiveJ.J. Beyer clasps Vittoria Glendinings 29 Feb 1984 ?140, again Glendinings 28 Nov 1984 ?160P. Lerchenfeld 2nd Line Bn. KGL 6 Clasps Talavera, Busaco, Fuentes D?Onor, Ciudad Rodrigo, Salamnca, VittoriaGlendining?s 24 June 1981Otti Leonhardt, Sjt, 2nd Line Bn KGL [ex Robert Gould Collection] 8 Clasps Talavera, Busaco Ciudad Rodrigo , Salamanca, Vittoria, St. Sebastian, Nivelle, NiveGlendinings 27 Mar 1985 ?330 1
Ulsterman Posted June 26, 2009 Posted June 26, 2009 Les:FYI, the Waterloo medal was SUPPOSED to be for everyone at the battle, but there were a number of individuals and even a few units that were denied the medal for cowardice etc. etc..MGS 9 clasps: Christopher Schultz, 5th Line Btn.: Talavera, Busaco, Fuentes, Ciudad, Salamanca,vittoria, St. Sebastian, Nivelle, Nive: 310 pounds: Sothebys' March 21, 1974 ("property of a gentleman").many, many more to add to the list. :Cat-Scratch: Hold On-are we doing officers only?
Guest Rick Research Posted June 26, 2009 Posted June 26, 2009 MGS Medals to anyone KGL. In groups or split from groups. In the event that say a Waterloo is known for an MGS holder but the MGS is not located, WILL include those since one purpose would be to reunite sundered pairs/groups.But if they did not get an MGS, not interested. That must be my focus to be manageable. Interesting to see some "repeat customers" names on your latest additions. All grist for the provenance history mill, being able to follow a chain of possession for the last 150 years on into the next. If these medals are mentioned as being from a named person's collection, please include that so can list "The XYZ Collection" rather than simply "ABC Sale." How many medals CAN we do this for, like this? Victoria Crosses, maybe?
Ralph Posted June 26, 2009 Posted June 26, 2009 Some MoreThe following are all from the "Ambrose Elson" Collection, sold by Glendining?s 25 Sep 1963 Martin Kestner 2nd Lt. Bn. KGL clasps Talavera,Busaco,Fuentes D?Omor, Salamanca, Vittoria .St. Sebastian,Nivelle.Nive ?68.00Gabriel Leunig 3rd Hussars KGL 1 Clasp Sahagun and Benevente + Waterloo ?34.00G.F. Paschal Lieut. 2nd Line Bn. KGL, 2 Clasps Nivelle, Nive + Waterloo + Medal for Bravery ?38.00Godfrey Tronier 1st Lt. Dgns, KGL 3 Clasps Salamanca, Vittoria, Toulouse, + Waterloo+ Hanoverian Service medal for 16 years ?56.00Joseph Baumann 5th Line Bn. KGL, 9 Clasps Talavera,Busaco,Fuentes D?Onor, Ciudad Rodrigo, Salamanca,Vittoria, St. Sebastian,,Nivelle,Nive + Waterloo ?60.00Henry Thiele 1st Hussars, KGL 10 Clasps Talvera,Busaco,Fuentes D?Onor, Ciudad Rodrigo, Salamanca, Vittoria, Pyrenees,,Nivelle,Orthes, Toulouse + Waterloo (Named Henry Thieb) + Guelphic Medal (Named Heinr. Thiele, Cpl 1 Hussars Rgt.) ?120.00The following have no Identifiable Vendor:F.Delen 5 Line Bn. KGL 4 Clasps Talavera, Busaco, Ciudad Rodrigo, SalamancaGlendining?s 22 May 1963 ?21.00Fredk. Hoper 1st Line Bn KGL 9 Clasps Talavera, Busaco,Fuentes D?Onor, Ciudad Rodrigo, Salamanca, Vittoria, St. Sebastian, Nivelle, NiveGlendining?s 16 Nov 1964 ?70.00Col. Sjt. Christian Weiss 2nd lt, Bn KGL 6 Clasps Albuhera, Salamnca, Vittoria, St. Sebastian, Nivelle, Nive + Waterloo + Guelphic Silver medal for Bravery + KGL Volunteer medalSotheby?s 12 Apr 1978G. Schlaeger Bombr.Arty & Lt. 5th Line Bn, KGL 5 Clasps Talavera, Busaco, Fuentes D?Onor, Salamanca, Vittoria,Sotheby?s 18 Feb 1970 1
Guest Rick Research Posted June 26, 2009 Posted June 26, 2009 :Cat-Scratch: Good Lord! there are MORE "familiar names" AGAIN!!! Why, there's our very own GMIC-posted PASCHAL for instance! How many LIVES have been connected with these lumps of metal and silk? Mega philosophical ponderings!!! :cheers:
Guest Rick Research Posted June 26, 2009 Posted June 26, 2009 Here's an interesting set of statistics so far:Out of 70 MGS Medals to KGL members now on my increasing Master List--14 are documented on 2 sales6 on 3 sales1 on 4 salesand1 on 5 sales in the last 137 years.Quite a few were singles when first offered that were reunited as pairs. Obviously, this is a very VERY small collecting world and the same items keep circulating around and around in a very few collections. Another oddity is that quite a few Guelphic Medals have disappeared-- I suspect the German "German" collectors of the past pulled them out and saved those, while the British "British" collectors pulled out the MGSs and Waterloos. Both were morons for breaking groups to collect fragments, but at least SOME of our collecting brethren succeeded in reuniting split groups-- one after more than 50 years apart.
Ralph Posted June 27, 2009 Posted June 27, 2009 Some more ( including some familiar names)Heinrich Behrens 3rd Hussars KGL 1 Clasp Sahagun & BeneventeJ.B. Hayward Medal Sales List June 1975 ?175.00Heinrich Wunderlich 3rd Hussars KGL 1 Clasp Sahagun & BeneventeJ.B. Hayward Medal Sales List June 1975 ?175.00Christian Schussler, Gunner, Arty. KGL 10 Clasps Talavera, Busaco, Albuhera, Badajoz, Salamanca, Vittoria, Pyrenees, St. Sebastian, Orthes, ToulouseSotheby?s 30 June 1983 ?380, also in London Stamp Exchange List September 1983.Martin Kestner, 2nd Lt. BN KGL * Clasps Talavera, Busaco, Fuentes D?Onor, Salamanca, Vittoria,St. Sebastian, Nivelle, Nive Sothebys 4 Mar 1982 ?280 and again Sotheby?s 30 Jun 1983 ?380Christian Metje Corpl. 2nd Hussars, KGL 1 Clasp BarossaSotheby?s 30 June 1983 ?180C.Dalling, Vety. Surgn 3rd & 2nd Lt. Dgns, KGL 3 Clasps, Sahagun & Benevente, Orthes, ToulouseSotheby?s 30 Jun 1983 ?280Friedrich Trumper 1st Line Bn. KGL 8 Clasps Talavera, Barossa, Fuentes D?Onor, Ciudad Rodrigo, Salamanca, Vittoria, Nivelle, NiveChristies 23 Feb 1982 (est ?260/?300), Sotheby?s 30 Jun 1983 ?340Ludolph Bening, Corpl. 2nd Line Bn. KGL 8 clasps (listed in a previous post)Sotheby?s 30 June 1983 ?320 Christian Brandt 1st Line Bn. KGL 9 Clasps Talavera, Busaco, Fuentes D?Onor, Ciudad Rodrigo, Salamnca, Vittoria, St. Sebastian, Nivelle, NiveSotheby?s 30 Jun 1983 ?380Frederick Langwertz, Gunner ,Ary. KGL 6 Clasps Busaco, Albuhera, Ciudad Rodrigo, Salamanca, St. Sebastian, ToulouseChristie?s 20 Nov 1984 ?170
Guest Rick Research Posted June 27, 2009 Posted June 27, 2009 There seems to have been something going on with prices-- doubled from 1960s to 1970s and again 1970s to 1980s.Reality setting in-- or currency devaluation?These were apparently never cheap, but prices seem to have held steady--in relative terms-- from the 1930s to 1960s, from very bad times to (ah the warm glow of nostalgia) very good ones. Somewhere along the way a week's pay became the price of a new used car. I don't have any of the British Official Annual Price Guides after the early 1980s, but they were still, then (behind the curve) actually dismissive of KGL MGSs.Another statistical anomaly I've noted so far is a quite disproportionate survival of "Pyrenees" bars to members of the 4. Fu?batterie and Lt. Cordemann's squadron of the 1st Hussars. They were either blessed with some sort of divine group-favor or... I don't know what. Out of the 70 Medals I had listed by last night, 3 of each of these 2 companies. Now Schussler adds another to the artillery battery. Obviously 70+ out of 1,230 is not statistically significant--yet--but 7 out of 70-odd extant and "in commerce" sure is. One wonders if there was some sort of "Indiana Jones incident" at the holy well of the Blessed Somebodyorother.... :cheers:
Ulsterman Posted June 28, 2009 Posted June 28, 2009 Jeff Floyd has sold a fair few of these over the years. I'll leave him to put these on (unless he'd like me to).There's a lovely 9 bar MGS in the Fitzwilliam museum in Cambridge, purchased by Watson @ 1920.Heinrich Muhlert:http://www.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/dept/coins...on/page226.html
Guest Rick Research Posted August 4, 2009 Posted August 4, 2009 I am happy to report that I have been lent a 1990 "Mullen" and am busily transcribing all MGSs to members of the KGL with that as the total lsiting. Finished with the cavalry and moving into infantry and... it is EXTREMELY alarming indeed. "Numbers issued" as I suspected (my only real reason for doing this, since I'll naver HAVE one myself-- you MAY contact the Vatican about my beatification) seems to have NO refelction on the grim reality that the same VERY few medals have been traded around over and over again for the last century. Granted, Mullen is Brito-centric, with NO reports from German sales... but as the astonishing 1932 Hanover auction catalogs in Eric Ludvigsen's Nachlass reveal... even the "German" ones all seem to gravitate to England. So please continue to report in any and all sales from old catalogs, particularly after Mullen's 1990 publication date. I have not been this stunned since working on Lippe-Detmold's award rolls and seen the volume of returns. It might be well worth somebody's while to do what I'm doing with the KGL for their very favorite British regiment's or Corps' MGS and track what is ACTUALLY OUT THERE. On a happier note, I have seen many a split group patiently reunited sometimes decades apart. Good job, those men! :beer:
Ralph Posted August 4, 2009 Posted August 4, 2009 (edited) I would treat the Mullen roll with caution in regards to the KGL entries - If you compare my copies of the roll at the National Archives you will see quite a few discrepancies: e.g. Meyer Conrad - on the mauscript roll he has clasps Vitorria,Pyrenees,Nivelle,Orthes.Toulouse - Mullen mentions he has 9 clasps Muller Henry - There is a 9 Clasp recipient on the roll and in his boook but he fails to mention the MUller Henry 3 clasps who is on the roll but not in his book. Muller, Hermann - 6 clasps on the roll, 3 mentioned in his book Meyer Freidrich Cpl, on the roll as 10 clasps in his book as 9 clasps there is another Meyer, Friedrich, Cpl on the roll with 3 clasps but does not appear in his book (and I only pulled up the one page on the roll!!) Ralph (P.s. in repsonse to the previous query Mullen compiled a roll of the recipients of the Military General Service Medal) Edited August 4, 2009 by Ralph
Guest Rick Research Posted August 4, 2009 Posted August 4, 2009 Ralph-- that's my whole purpose-- to Amend & Revise, using the examples of ACTUAL Medals like yours as opposed to what the 1840s Rolls have scribbled. Keeping track of the "genealogy" of the same FEW medals moving around from collection to collection is just an interesting (well, for me, being a genealogist) sideline accomplished at the same time for the same amount of typing. I don't have access to other sources, which is why a collaboration here will, I think, be Newer & Better. A. L. T. Mullen, "The Military General Service Roll 1793-1814," The London Stamp Exchange, 1990. ISBN 0 948130 92 X. 726 pages arranged by regiments/units numerically and alphabetically listed within each. Ultimately, with ONLY the KGL as my unpaid slave labor why isn't the Vatican returning my phone calls project... I expect the horrifying final reality to be that what actually still EXISTS is pretty much... accounted for. There AREN'T "other medals" Out There waiting to be "discovered" in this 21st century. :speechless1:
Guest Rick Research Posted August 29, 2009 Posted August 29, 2009 Still plugging away at this. Passed 760 of them today from Mullen as the base line. Horrifying reality is holding at less than 1 out of 6 issued being traded around and around-- I think that's how many have survived 140 years from old soldiers who earned them 200 years ago. Finding, with computerized version, some of the "problems" already mentioned. Some of the "total" were, I think, double entered on ROLLS (same guy under 2 units), further reducing actual numbers. I am still amazed that apparently "British" Official Guides seem to think numbered ISSUED equates to NUMBER AVAILABLE.
Guest Rick Research Posted September 7, 2009 Posted September 7, 2009 Well, I've finished typing out Mullen, so now am able to provide a computer-searchable data base to immediately see whether a named King's German Legion PENINSULA bars Military General Service Medal has ever been out there, or if an MGS and Waterloo have been split apart, if you folks will please continue to post current online sales offerings of them or report old "paper catalog" sales from Way Back When, I can continue to keep track of not the THEORETICAL numbers issued, but the ones which SURVIVE. Anyone who has MGS Medals or Waterloo Medals to MGS recipients (let me again specify: NOT "interested" in Waterloo-ONLY recipients, only those Waterloo holders who lived long enough to get an MGS, but please REPORT sales of Waterloo medals just in case) who does not wish to publicize the fact may contact me as neutral/impartial secure data keeper and I will enter yours on the list by some anonymous code only I know-- with the hopeful purpose of getting split groups back together again for all current owners. Total MGSs awarded to KGL members per Finkam in 1901 were 134 officers and 1,096 other ranks. From Mullen, I get 147 officers (this includes some medals issued as other ranks to soldiers subsequently commissioned and obviously BRITISH officers Finkam may not have counted) and between 1,167 to 1,178 other ranks' Medals. The discrepancy is because a number of medal applications were so defective that there is a very real chance that no medals were actually issued, while some few more should probably be deducted as probably duplicates for the same men entered on two rolls. No, things were not at ALL neatly and tidily accounted for on paper-- which is why what SURVIVES as ACTUAL MEDALS becomes important. There will of course be errors in spellings ( ) and bars ACTUALLY attached. I've noticed two where Mullen's description has more bars (Drummer Stukenburg KGL Artillery) and less bars (Fredk. Neumann 2nd Line Bn). THAT is the sort of "tweaking" I am interested in correcting: REAL medals, not Rolls listings. :cheers:
Ulsterman Posted September 12, 2009 Posted September 12, 2009 So to clarify-if we have any odd records of the whereabouts of a KGL MGS and/or Waterloo medal we should add them here? By the way-does anyone know if there is a Hanoverian roll of Hanoverian Waterloo medals extant?
Detlev Niemann Posted October 5, 2009 Posted October 5, 2009 (edited) Good morning, I can add some officers: - Georg Baron von Decken,Capt. 1.Huss.KGL, MGS with 9 bars (single) - Henry Behrens , Lt. 1st Huss. KGL,MGS 7 bars + Waterloo medal - Friedrich Wenckstern, Baron Cpt., MGS 9 bars all private collection regards Detlev Niemann Edited October 5, 2009 by Detlev Niemann
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