Rolls

[WNickel]

Hi David,

save your money - there are some more pages than 194 and there Ordenslisten from different years. I just work on it.

Best regards

Werner

[David M]

Hi David,

save your money - there are some more pages than 194 and there Ordenslisten from different years. I just work on it.

Best regards

Werner

Hi Werner

do you also do the pre 1870? That would be really interesting for me!!

David

[WNickel]

Hi David,

the first list I have is from 1875 - I don't know former lists, only Hof- and Staatshandb?cher.

There are awards pre 1870, but not complete. That's the mistake in your answer of the archives in Darmstadt, that 1898 and 1914 are not complete listings, because the people who died weren't in it.

Best regards

Werner

[Dave Danner]

I have uploaded a PDF with the orders lists from the 1879 edition of the Hof- and Staatshandbuch des Gro?herzogtums Hessen. The document is 4.5 megabytes in size and 192 pages in length. At a rough guess, I'd say there are about 5,000 names. Included are:

I. Ludewigs-Orden

II. Goldener L?wen-Orden

III. Verdienst-Orden Philipps des Gro?m?thigen

IV. Milit?r-Verdienst-Kreuz 1870/71

V. Milit?r-Sanit?ts-Kreuz 1870/71

VI. Verdienst-Medaille f?r Wissenschaft, Kunst, Industrie und Landwirthschaft

VII. Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen, broken down into the following inscriptions:

- 1) "F?r Verdienste"

- 2) "F?r Tapferkeit"

- 3) "F?r 50j?hrige treue Dienste"

- 4) "F?r langj?hrige treue Dienste"

- 5) "F?r treue Dienste"

- 6) "F?r Rettung von Menschenleben"

- 7) "F?r Rettung aus Lebensgefahr"

There is also a Nachtrag with several pages of additional awards, deletions (due to death) and corrections through November 20, 1879. Obviously, this isn't a complete list for your earlier awards, as it lacks those who'd already died, but it should be a good start.

One thing to note. The Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen "F?r Tapferkeit" was in World War I Hesse's main valor award. In this list, there are only 12 awards of the Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen "F?r Tapferkeit" to Hessians (all in 1866) and another 50 to non-Hessians, 36 to Austrians for the 1859 Franco-Austrian War/Austro-Sardinian War and 4 to Prussians and 10 to Bavarians for the 1870-71 Franco-Prussian War. For the Franco-Prussian War, Hesse's Milit?r-Verdienst-Kreuz was the decoration of choice: there were several hundred awards to Hessians and non-Hessians from private to general. It was in effect the Iron Cross equivalent in that war. I wonder why Ernst Ludwig did not revive this cross in World War I?

The link is here.

[David M]

Hi Dave

That is great, I would say KEEP THEM COMING :-))

David

[Dave Danner]

Some more extracts from Staatshandb?cher.

From the 1906 and 1908 W?rttemberg Staatshandb?cher, the Orders Statutes for W?rttemberg's decorations. I included the 1906 because one of the pages in the 1908 version is difficult to read.

• http://home.att.net/~ordersandmedals3/Ausz...emberg_1906.pdf -

  7 pages, 609 kB

• http://home.att.net/~ordersandmedals3/Ausz...emberg_1908.pdf -

  7 pages, 494 kB

Below are the sections of the 1902, 1905, 1906 and 1908 W?rttemberg Staatshandb?cher regarding the kingdom's military department. They cover the Kriegsministerium and various agencies, as well as the XIII. Armeekorps. The 1908 one also includes the military adjutants to the royal court.

• http://home.att.net/~ordersandmedals3/Wuertt_SHB_1902.pdf - 30 pages, 1.26 mB
• http://home.att.net/~ordersandmedals3/Wuertt_SHB_1905.pdf - 30 pages, 1.24 mB
• http://home.att.net/~ordersandmedals3/Wuertt_SHB_1906.pdf - 30 pages, 1.25 mB
• http://home.att.net/~ordersandmedals3/Wuertt_SHB_1908.pdf - 33 pages, 1.73 mB

[Guest Rick Research]

Just to bring this one back up "active" again--

Finished off the Schaumburg-Lippe Cross for Loyal Service in War PINBACK WW1 "roll" today. Not difficult-- a minor distraction from the house order Honor Cross horrors, with only 36 to type up.

But typical for horrid Schaumbutrg, a full 25% of the 36 recipients are UNIDENTIFIABLE.

Oh no, NOT because the roll cannot be READ--

because the @*^&^)#@ idiot who KEPT it listed names with NO rank or position descriptions. Blank lines upon lines upon lines, with entries like "Archduke Max." (WHO????????) and "Prinz Christian son of Prince Friedrich" (WHO???????) The other seven have names which there are either MULTIPLE Princes so named (and which the bleep were THEY) or no such single "Rufname" Royal Guys with them and their 15 baptismal names.

Argh.

It's going to be a tough slog sorting Schaumburg out.

[David M]

That sure is an interesting puzzle!!! I dont't think it is really undoable though. It would however take studying of genealogies and photo's to find out which Archdukes and Princes were involved.

That would be a project in which we could all step in, or just a select roup if you like. A reall nice thread that would be!!

Regards

David

Just to bring this one back up "active" again--

Finished off the Schaumburg-Lippe Cross for Loyal Service in War PINBACK WW1 "roll" today. Not difficult-- a minor distraction from the house order Honor Cross horrors, with only 36 to type up.

But typical for horrid Schaumbutrg, a full 25% of the 36 recipients are UNIDENTIFIABLE.

Oh no, NOT because the roll cannot be READ--

because the @*^&^)#@ idiot who KEPT it listed names with NO rank or position descriptions. Blank lines upon lines upon lines, with entries like "Archduke Max." (WHO????????) and "Prinz Christian son of Prince Friedrich" (WHO???????) The other seven have names which there are either MULTIPLE Princes so named (and which the bleep were THEY) or no such single "Rufname" Royal Guys with them and their 15 baptismal names.

Argh.

It's going to be a tough slog sorting Schaumburg out.

[Guest Rick Research]

ADDITIONAL ROLLS ALERT !!!

I have just found TWO yes TWO rolls for Schaumburg-Lippe's Honor Crosses 1869 to 1890, thereby allowing for a complete run just like Lippe-Detmold! This adds another 1,500 Schaumburg awards to the 2,800-ish I just "finished."

Weirdly arranged in constant chronological order, the classes are all jumbled together. Absolutely no explanation on why there are TWO rolls. But these are numbered, and there are Initial Letter indices by line number, so I can find any 1869-90 entry. Returns are also noted for 1869-90 awards.

The handwriting is better than the 1890-1918 Rolls and oddly enough, at least for the 1870-71 With Swords awards here very often have first names omitted in that part of the rolls from Detmold...

so baaaaack to Detmold's rolls again as I get through these new-found Schaumburg rolls.

And I've sorted out the Horruh That Is Waldeck and at least now can tell what I have for that are:

Waldeck Merit Cross 1st Class July 1896 through 1918, 2nd Class July 1896 through 1918, Officer class 1912 to 1918 (so these three grades are complete for the 1896+ type), but only have 3rd Class from in May 1913 through 1918, 4th Class from in August 1913 through 1918, then have complete Merit Cross rolls July 1899 through 1918, and then Gold medals from in August 1913 through 1918.

Sorry eitze but Waldeck is now put back substantially on the schedule, with all the additional Schaumburg rolls to do.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[eitze]

And I've sorted out the Horruh That Is Waldeck and at least now can tell what I have for that are:

Wadleck Merit Cross 1st Class July 1896 through 1918, 2nd Class July 1896 through 19188, Officer class 1912 to0 1918 (so these three grades are complete for the 1896+ type), but only have 3rd Class from in May 1913 through 1918, 4th Class from in August 1913 through 1918, then have complete Merit Cross rolls July 1899 through 1918, and then Gold medals from in August 1913 through 1918.

Sorry eitze but Waldeck is now put back substantially on the schedule, with all the additional Schaumburg rolls to do.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Rick,

but it is nice, that Waldeck isn`t forgotten

And perhaps Daniel will publish his revised Roth list this year!

greetings

eitze

[Guest Rick Research]

Here is an example of the 1869-1890 Schaumburg rolls. The crossed out entries are all RETURNS. Scribbled notes in pencil date from about 1902 and are comments on what these recipients were at that later time, addresses, and so on. Apparently somebody was "keeping tabs" on where they were with the view to being able to pounce as soon as their death certificates were signed--to get the awards back!!!

And, oh yes, this scan is about 50% bigger than the original. Some people dig for coal. Other people wrestle sharks. I transcribe microscopic geriatric Sutterlin.

I will add here each class as I finish it.

SLH1 all types Done.

SLH2 all types Done.

SLH3X for 1870 Done and information added.

SLH3 in common with Detmold and independently Done.

SLH4(a) Done and information added.

Gold and Silver Merit Crosses Done.

Edited July 19, 2007 by Rick Research

[David M]

Would anyone know about the Nassau Civil Order of Adolph? It lived on in Luxembourg, but I am especially interested in the 1858-1866 periode of its existence. Does this come up in any kind of literature?

I contacted the Archives in Wiesbaden today to find out if the rolls are in the Staatshandb?cher of these periodes.

Regards

David

[Red Eagle]

Would anyone know about the Nassau Civil Order of Adolph? It lived on in Luxembourg, but I am especially interested in the 1858-1866 periode of its existence. Does this come up in any kind of literature?

I contacted the Archives in Wiesbaden today to find out if the rolls are in the Staatshandb?cher of these periodes.

Regards

David

For the Nassau roll look at the (BDOS) OMM 18/19 from 1984.

Greetings

Red

Edited June 26, 2007 by Red Eagle

[Guest Rick Research]

After finding a Prussian Guards officer deserter

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=19764

today's work in the Schaumburg-Lippe Merit Crosses turned up a huntsman's award revoked for poaching (ironic) and a court furrier who most unforgivably hocked his real gold dingus so it could not be recovered by the state. The things filed and forgotten....

[Guest Rick Research]

Today I found a (?) unique (so far) class of the Schaumburg Lippe Honor Cross, especially created for a specific individual-- causing the Orders Chancery clerk (actually, apparently this was under the Hofmarschall's Office) to indignantly note that the award did not exist according to statutes!

And BTW, for those of you who have begun wondering about the "mythical" award rolls work-- Daniel just told me today that the first two have been sent in to be printed

with his "Non W?rttemberg Awards to W?rttembergers 1914-1918," and Saxe-Weimar and reworked Waldeck 1914-18 will go in next week for what will probably be a quadruple publication batch.

Nothing further to report at this point. The number of volumes printed will determine the price--we do not know this ourselves yet. WHEN we have hard information (like when Daniel gets a great big pile of books) will post that in the New Books, CDs, Etc Sales Forum.

[Deruelle]

Very good news Rick, very good news

Christophe

[Dave Danner]

Another freebie from me:

Orders and decorations of the Principality of Reuss-Schleiz (Reuss j?ngere Linie) listed in the Amts- und Verordnungsblatt, 1915-1918

These are primarily civil decorations, although many are on the war ribbon, and one Lifesaving Medal was to a Flieger for saving the life of an NCO. I also should be adding a supplement with non-Reuss decorations also gazetted in the Amts- und Verordnungsblatt. These are mainly from Mecklenburg-Schwerin, along with a few from Saxony, Bavaria and the other Thuringian states.

Best regards,

Reuss_Schleiz_Orders_and_decorations.pdf

[Rick]

Dave, whoopie! Always glad to obtain the names of German airmen. In this case a special treat, as they were Schlachtflieger! Thanks, Rick

[webr55]

Congratulations to Rick and Daniel!

And thanks to Dave for your upload!

[Guest Rick Research]

Finished transcribing all of Schaumburg Lippe's awards 1869 1918 as previously listed.

[Guest Rick Research]

Daniel called me today to report that Saxe-Weimar, the three Ernestine Duchies, and a massively revised 2nd edition of the Waldeck rolls all went in to be printed today. With 5 volumes

FINISHED

ranging from the 50-some pages of Hohenzollern to the well over 200 of the Ernestines, this should be critical mass for getting these PRINTED

so start saving your National Currency Units.

When Daniel and I know how MANY of each volume is ACTUALLY printed, then we will know how much they will cost.

Meanwhile, Detmold will certainly be on the same scale as the Ernestines. I am cross-checking Schaumburg against those, filling in double awards. So Detmold should be ready by the end of the summer, with Schaumburg soon to follow.

Daniel, as usual, is doing 47 projects simultaneously, but improved versions of the out of print 1990s rolls following our format

and with the additional data we include are also in the works.

Hard to believe all this started only one year ago.

[W McSwiggan]

Rick,

Truly a thing of beauty not to mention volume!

We are indebted to you & Daniel.

Thank you for your efforts in preserving and making these data available.

wem

[Guest Rick Research]

AS I labouriously fill in missing data in Schaumburg's name/title/date roll

trying to make them at least pale simulacrums of the magnificent perfect splendor that was Detmold's

it CONTINUES to boggle my mind how many MISTAKES there are in the listings for these awards in the contemporary 1908/09 German Orders Almanac.

We have become accustomed to relying on that as our "Bible" for--especially--civilians, so that anyone who depends on what "must" be the Most Authenticate Source because it was printed at the time is all too often going to get the WRONG information.

Daniel and I have been struggling to find a balance between TOO MUCH INFORMATION ADDED and what will be enough to be helpful and point our fellow collector/researchers in the right direction.

But the Orders Almanac is SO bad on Schaumburg data that I am going to ask Daniel to KEEP the notations of DtOrdAlm ERRORS in the "remarks" column that our format leaves for roll notations and other comments (references to any other award classes or same state awards for cross-referencing and so on).

Part of our effort is to correct past mistakes-- and man oh man, are there ever plenty of 'em!

[David M]

Question on the SEHO's being published: are the once referred to in the 1st ost of this topic the WWI ones or is someone working on the pre 1914 ones as well?

I contacted the Archives this week at Meiningen and they told me that as far as the Staatshandb?cher are concerned, the orderslist only gives years and no dates (which I tend to find quite useless, As I am a context fan and like to place the decorations on an exact date in order to find out the exact reason for the award) (this is all pre WWI I am talking about here)

David

Edited August 18, 2007 by David M

[Guest Rick Research]

Yes, 1914-1918. I have pages from 1911 on so obviously there are many many many

did I mention

many

volumes earlier.

The THREE Ernestine Duchies combined had FIVE rolls just for the period I've laboured through. Earlier... who knows what there is, how it was "organized," or how detailed any were. I would suspect strongly that the further back from 1900 on ANY German roll you go, the worst the lack of information is going to be. In many cases what we are left with for "rolls" are little more than annual budget tallies of expenditures "per each." Bean counting, it seems, is an ancient art.

Even Lippe Detmold's SPLENDID PERFECT rolls only STARTED being splendidly perfect in January 1905.

Today I found my first ever Prussian Rank Lists MISTAKE

Leutnant von Friedrich-Schroeter (that's his LAST-Name, not first and last) of Hussar Regiment 7 was awarded the SLH4 on 8 June 1912. Yet BOTH the 1913 and 1914 Rank Lists show it as

an "LDH4"

95 years late, but Ricky caught the error.