EK 1939 Rounder RK

[Guest Darrell]

Anyone have opinions regarding this one for sale?

A nice variant Knights Cross of the Iron Cross being the type with the rounded corners. The cross has marginal wear and tear and has a nice clear swastika with nice clear dates also. The cross is also marked 800 to the frameand also to the silver suspension loop. It comes complete with a piece of ribbon. This type of cross can be seen in Gordon Williamsons book The Iron Cross on page 337 as well as page 336 where a write up is included. There is also a picture on 338 of this type of cross being worn by a veteran. So far this manufacturer has not been identified although several theories have been put forward In very nice condition and Knights Crosses are becoming very hard to acquire and their values are being pushed out of the average collector's pocket, so if you are after one, now is the time to buy, this is an attractive price as it is not one of the known 3 main award types. GBP ? 2250.00

[Alex K]

I wouldn't buy it

[joe campbell]

I wouldn't buy it

any specific reason why it doesn't catch your eye?

just curious...

i know next to nothing about them.

joe

[Nick]

Perhaps it would be best to name the source of the photo as a courtesy to the dealer i.e. Jamie Cross.

I thought this subject had been discussed at length. See here for anyone who wishes to learn more: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=12999

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi Darrel,

I dont like it.

Maybe Dave Kane can supply one of his fake boxes and Tom Hanson's son can ebay it?

[Richard Gordon]

As almost every by now knows, several of these were SEM tested and the result declared that the paint was of a type that didn't exist in 1945.

[Richard Gordon]

Maybe Dave Kane can supply one of his fake boxes and Tom Hanson's son can ebay it?

Chris, are you saying Dave Kane sells fake cases as original??

[Chris Boonzaier]

Chris, are you saying Dave Kane sells fake cases as original??

Did you miss that !!!

It was a really entertaining thing... I loved the threads of the poor guy in Asia struggling to get his loot back.

[Guest Darrell]

Well, assume a young collector scoops this one up and figures he made a good investment. After all, he's read the literature, however, never visited WAF, GMIC etc. What's the take? Did he do good?

What happens when people say he has a $6000 paper weight? Tough Love? Should have done your homework? Maybe he bought one 2 years ago before this whole Rounder issue got "beat to death" and theories and assumptions have changed what is deemed period? Who does he believe?

What are the consequences of these dealers flaunting fakes and quoting literary sources as proof of authenticity? So where do we as "collectors" draw the line?

Food for thought.

[Colin Davie]

If buying an item in this expense bracket, really anyone, not just beginners should only buy from a dealer with a lifetime guarantee of authenticity.. someone proves it fake in the future, you claim a refund.

Call it insurance/assurance or just common sense.

C

[Guest Darrell]

If buying an item in this expense bracket, really anyone, not just beginners should only buy from a dealer with a lifetime guarantee of authenticity.. someone proves it fake in the future, you claim a refund.

Call it insurance/assurance or just common sense.

C

I agree. I've always been an advocate of GOA's ..... ASSUMING they are issued by honest individuals. I've heard Jamie Cross hands out GOA's. If you bought this one tomorrow and tried to return it the next day because you felt it was bad ... what do you think he'd say?

These are fine if the seller agrees with the masses regarding authenticity. What good are they if they don't?

[Gordon Williamson]

As many of you will know the focus of my collecting interests now lies with Imperial German/Imperial Japanese. Apart from U-Boat related matters for which my interests run from its origins up to today, I rarely follow threads on areas related to Third Reich unless I am specifically asked.

As far as the Rounders are concerned, if I understand matters correctly, Jamie Cross has had correspondence with the people in the UK who provided the expert opinion on the paint type used on the Rounders and got a different story to that expressed by others so I assume that he is selling based on his opinion that some of the evidence against them has been contradicted, but you'd have to ask him for further details.

As for me - would I buy a Rounder - no I wouldn't. But then (quite apart from the fact that there are so many theories, with varying amounts of circumstantial evidence but very little hard fact "documented" evidence, circulating regarding virtually every make of RK, that personally, I wouldn't be in a hurry to buy any RK) I would be unlikely to be interested in buying ANY Nazi period pieces as its no longer the focus of my interest.

My book , like every other book, has its errors and in the fullness of time, if the publisher elects to reprint, then it will be revised and corrected.

Meantime the debate around Knight's Crosses in generally has become a vehicle for the pursuit of personal vendettas and that's something I have no intention of being drawn into, though as Chris has referred to, it is ironic that the RK "Guru" from another forum who usually shouts loudest about percieved "conspiracies" was indeed caught out buying cheap fake RK cases on EBay and selling them as real.

[Richard Gordon]

Did you miss that !!!

It was a really entertaining thing... I loved the threads of the poor guy in Asia struggling to get his loot back.

Whoa! Back up the truck... you're telling me that Dave Kane, the most holy-of-holy, one of the few with 'backbone' to call a spade a spade actually got caught selling fake RK cases as real?? Would you happen to have a link to that handy so we could see that?

My world has been shattered... I mean Dave Kane is WAF's most premiere authority on all things RK, I mean that's the impression I get...members look up to him like he speaks gospel when ever he writes about RK's. How can he still be a member, and a lifetime member at that if he's been caught with the perverbial pants-around-the-ankles??

What happened to the victim?

Just to confirm, is that why Dave Kane was expelled from here? For trying to pass of fakes as genuine?

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

It was before your time, way back in the mists of time. The guy ended up getting his money back I think.

[Richard Gordon]

Hi,

It was before your time, way back in the mists of time. The guy ended up getting his money back I think.

Chris

Well it took a bit of searching but I found the thread:

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...light=fake+case

Incredible... not only did he try to pass one fake case but to try with the second is simply outrageous! Seems Dave Kane lives by double standards... in one life he's shouting for fakers and conmen to be named,shamed and beheaded, in this other life he's one of them!

I can see now why he was banned from this forum. Certainly not the type you'd want as a role model nor member.

Do you know if he was suspended for this on WAF?

Rich

[Guest Darrell]

Thanks Gordon for your reply.

[hagwalther]

Thanks Gordon for your reply.

... and a damn good reply it was too.

Regards

[Sal Williams]

Hi Gordon,

I was not absolutely sure what you mean in your post. You believe the rounder is post war? I am pretty sure that is what you meant, just want to be certain. I know there is a nasty battle between many folks with this subject, and I am not stirring any pots nor do I want to be involved in any of that, I only want to know if everybody is in agreement that the rounder is post war. (I know you can't speak for J.Cross or anyone else)

Thanks, Sal

[Gordon Williamson]

Sal,

Obviously when the book was written I was of the opinion, as were many others, that these were wartime. The testing that Allan Pilch had done over here, albeit respresenting a tiny statistical sample, persuaded me of the likelihood that they were postwar.

It would still be nice to have further testing to establish a larger statistical sample, but the cost of the testing probably means that this is unlikely. The discrepancy in opinions from the "paint experts" for want of a better phrase, in the UK is also something could do with being followed up, but for me the subject is not something I have any further interest in.

[Sal Williams]

Thank you Gordon.

[DavidM]

.......

Edited August 4, 2007 by DavidM