Document KvK 2nd class..With swords

[J Temple-West]

Standard award Document (urkunde) for the KvK 2nd class, with swords.

[Guest Rick Research]

Here is the large but much more boring since it is merely printed and with the same Reichs Chancery stamp all the time, for a KVK2 without swords.

Although it doesn't say so, Amtsrat Drews was down the block from the Brandenburg Gate at the Prussian State Ministry.

[Laurence Strong]

What I believe to be a locally reproduced one for the KvK2 w/ swords

Edited May 13, 2005 by Laurence Strong

[Gordon Williamson]

My favourite KVK 2 document. This one is to Will L?hner, he was the chief engineer (Leitender Ingineur , or L.I. - pronounced ELL EE ) on U-48 under top ace Herbert Schulze.

Survived the war and also received the Bundesverdienstkreuz

[Gordon Williamson]

Here he is

[Laurence Strong]

Here's another, not KM this time but Gebirgstruppen.

[Gordon Williamson]

Another new one just acquired. A military pattern 2nd Class with Swords document in A5 size, but to a civilian (member of the Luftschutzpolizei).

I have every faith that within seconds Rick will have identified the signature and provided us with his life history.

[Guest Rick Research]

But of course!

General der Flieger (1.2.41 #2) Ludwig Wolff (* 31.8.1886 Schlettstadt ? 17.5.1950 Neustadt in Holstein)

Commanded Luftgau XI (Hamburg) from 1 February 1939 to 3 May 1945, when he was captured by British troops. ALL his "action" during the war was in defense of the Hamburg-Hannover region--

for which he received an "honorary" Luftwaffe Flak Badge, BOTH classes of EK Spangen...

and the Knight's Cross with Swords of the KVK (27.9.43)

Oddly enough, despite the HUGE numbers of Luftschutzpolizei, and their disproportionate (compared to fire fighters, civilian air raid wardens, regular police, TeNo etc) casualties during air raids, it is remarkably, bizarrely difficult to find uniforms and insignia for them. (Luftwaffe uniforms with SchuPo insignia, from 1942+)

[Gordon Williamson]

Rick

That was toooooooooo Easy !

Here he is. Unfortunately the RK of the KVK has been inserted, isn't real, but I'm sure you will like his ribbon bar ! How long does a ribbon bar have to be before being split into two rows ? Was there any sort of rule on that ?

[Guest Rick Research]

I've seen 13. Depends on the wearer's lapel/front tunic flap to armpit distance, I suppose.

I'd say Herr WOLFF must actually have been a MOOSE to have space left over on either side of his 12!!!!

[Guest Rick Research]

Here is an "ordinary" and rather "boring" routine "Sitzfleischorden" desk job military KVK2X, from a blanket mass award list that the commander couldn't even be bothered signing-- going for PRINTED authorization:

[attachmentid=6783]

This is a case where having an intact group provides The Rest Of The Story where a single loose document can not.

Major (dR zV, actually--born in 1885) Lautenschlager won both Iron Crosses, the Bavarian Military Merit Order 4th Class with Swords, and a Black Wound Badge as an infantry Oberleutnant dR in WW1. A career higher civil servant (Regierungsrat), he was dismissed by the Nazis in their first bloodless administrative purge of political/religious/racial "enemies" 1934-35.

But whatever his "sin" (an inappropriate wife? some "taint" on his own family tree? unguarded honesty in the years before 1933 about the local Nazis?), it was not enough of a "blot" to keep him out of the Wehrmacht, or to get him the one-promotion normal to recalled WW1 officers (char. Hauptmann dR aD after the First war).

[George Stimson]

Here's a neat one.

[Gordon Williamson]

Very nice George. I'm shocked that your image has been up for several hours and Rick hasn't already given us the ID of the signatory and most important, what he was wearing and what he had for breakfast on the day the doc was issued.

[Jim P]

How rare are these award documents?What would one expect to pay for one?Is there anyway of matching a document to the award,as in knowing that the medal is the orginal issued at the same time?One last question,what should you be looking for to tell fake from an original document.Sorry to ask so many questions,but would like to step up into that next level of collecting and want to be as educated as possible before spending any money.

Thanks for the help,

Jim P

[Guest Rick Research]

But George didn't say he NEEDED any of that! Think of me stubby typy fingies if all for nought!!! If my Awesome Powers Of De-Scribblification are not invoked, I just admire silently.

I'm not current on retail prices-- especially for Third Reich stuff, but my best advice Jim would be NOT to go for the "exotic." SS, high ranking, Panzer, parachutist... that kind of stuff is most likely to be bad. Also, go for as complete a GROUP as is possible-- it is still possible to obtain a soldier's carefully saved set of say an EK2, Wound, Assault Badge, one of the Flowers medals... that sort of "normal" Real Wehrmacht group-- and with those, you get a more complete idea of what kind of war a soldier had.

Many people collect award documents for the authorizing person's autograph. That, IMO, is backwards. General Soandso signed paperwork by the dozens every day, by the thousands every month-- and probably never looked at what was under his pen. The person who signed a document did not earn THAT award-- and the person who DID (and where, and how) is the more important, from my point of view.

[George Stimson]

I just need the socks, Rick. What color were the guy's socks?

[Gordon Williamson]

Interesting Doc though George. Unless I am very much mistaken, the signatory is Eduard Wagner who was implicated in the bomb plot against Hitler and in fact committed suicide on 23 July when he realised the plot had failed.

[George Stimson]

I keep getting some kind of error message when I try to post a closer pic of the signature....

In any case, I'm certain that it's printed on the doc, not handwritten.

[Gordon Williamson]

Here he is

[George Stimson]

And here's the sig.

[Guest Rick Research]

I agree-- printed! You can see the even color across the "ink" without crossing over lines, and the small skips inside the letters.

So much work for an exceptionally nice document, and then he didn't even SIGN them!

[Gordon Williamson]

"Generic" with Swords doc with space for class to be typed in.

Any ideas on the signature Rick ?

[Guest Rick Research]

I don't find Schmerse in the 1936 Rank List or postwar MOHeV directories.

Signed by Admiral zur See (1.1.40 #2) G?nther Guse (* 30.8.1886 Stettin ?6.5.1953 Camp Vladimir as Soviet POW), commander of Baltic Station 21.9.40-8.3.43, German Cross in Silver 19.2.43.

[Gordon Williamson]

Thanks Rick !

[Simon Orchard]

Check the date on this one.

Signed by Karl-Albrecht Mensching, DKiS