[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

At the suggestion of one of our fellow members, I would like to present a medal bar for your evaluation in the hope that you might be able to provide some information about it; and maybe even it?s recipient as well.

For those of you who are not familiar with Imperial German decorations, I will point out that from left to right we have the Prussian Krieger Verdienstmedaille (Warrior Merit Medal) in ?gold?, then the same in silver followed by the Prussian Crown Order Medal. Of course, you recognize the Egyptian Khedive?s Medal and the British Egypt Medal. The British Egypt medal is engraved on the rim as follows - 5th Bn INFry No233.

I thank you for any information which you may be able to provide; and if I can ever be of assistance in the world of Imperial German decorations, please let me know.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

Attached File(s)

•  AfricanBar1.jpg (99.55K)
  Number of downloads: 4

[Ed_Haynes]

An interesting group, with some inventive mounting, one that raises more questions than it answers:

1- The naming on the Egypt Medal: Is this exactly as it reads? This would seem to be a medal to an Egyptian then, rather than to a Britisn (or imperial) subject. Yet most of these were named in Arabic, not English.

2- The Khedival Star: Which variety?

3- The ribbons are, at best, eccentric on these last two and the order is odd. It would suggest an award to an Egyptian who wore his medals in the proper order (for him), but with the wrong ribbon on the Khedive's award?! But then why mount the German stuff at the beginning?! Does the mounting seem "period"?

My first impression would be some sort of Egyptian courtier, ex-military, but the order and the absence of anything else Egyptian seems odd.

Very curious.

[Rick Research]

The original German East Africa colonial forces employed contract NCOs from Egypt in the "first generation" when the reliability of the brand new colonial peoples was unknown. We are talking some few scores in total, certainly under 100 soldiers.

It would be too bad NOT to be able to track down and identify this fellow-- a long way from home.

[Wild Card]

Hi Ed Haynes & Rick Research,

I have double checked the inscription on the rim of the Egypt medal and it is exactly as I stated above, except that I neglected to mention that there is a period after ?Bn(.) and INFry(.). Also as a point of clarification, if it makes any difference, I would say that the inscription is impressed as opposed to, as I had said, engraved.

The Khedival Star is the type with 1884-6 type center medallion.
My guess is that this group belonged to someone who first fought with the British in The Egyptian War of 1882 and then served with the Germans. Having received the subsequent German awards, he went to the local source, who was a German, to have his group put together. I would say that the precedence is proper Prussian.

I think that your suggestion, ?My first impression would be some sort of Egyptian courtier, ex-military...?, coupled with Rick?s (Thanks, Rick!) information has us headed in the right direction. Rick, this has got to be one of them. Now, if we can just figure out the significance of that pesky ?5 Bn.? and the ?No233?, surely we?ll have it.

Thank you gentlemen,

Wild Card

[Kev in Deva]

Hi Ed Haynes & Rick Research,

I have double checked the inscription on the rim of the Egypt medal and it is exactly as I stated above, except that I neglected to mention that there is a period after ?Bn(.) and INFry(.). Also as a point of clarification, if it makes any difference, I would say that the inscription is impressed as opposed to, as I had said, engraved.

The Khedival Star is the type with 1884-6 type center medallion.
My guess is that this group belonged to someone who first fought with the British in The Egyptian War of 1882 and then served with the Germans. Having received the subsequent German awards, he went to the local source, who was a German, to have his group put together. I would say that the precedence is proper Prussian.

I think that your suggestion, ?My first impression would be some sort of Egyptian courtier, ex-military...?, coupled with Rick?s (Thanks, Rick!) information has us headed in the right direction. Rick, this has got to be one of them. Now, if we can just figure out the significance of that pesky ?5 Bn.? and the ?No233?, surely we?ll have it.

Thank you gentlemen,

Wild Card

Hallo Wild Card

I presume that 5th Bn would refer to a Fifth Battalion, but of what? a localy raised unit of Colonial troops somewhere in Egypt, Sudan or Africa? as for the No. 233, a service number in the above mentioned Colonial Corps or Colonial unit.

Kevin in Deva.

[Ulsterman]

I like odd things-it shows the eccentric nature of history sometimes.

In the 1860s-1870s the Egyptian Khedive hired a large group of European mercenaries to stiffen its armies and "professionalize" them. Many of these men's contracts are still in the Egyptian archives. A few years ago there were some very good articles in various British "small wars" publications about US/Confederate types who went to Egypt-as well as some other Europeans.


I think this is real-it is too odd not to be in some ways (although maybe somebody in 1921 needed a ribbon bar for a play). I assume it is to a European by the British medals.

The British medals from Suakin are what bother me. I have the rolls for this battle-the "last stand" of the Fuzzy-Wuzzies and there is no "5th Btn." whatsoever-so why does this man have English medals named to what is almost certainly an Egyptian/Sudanese unit? The Egyptian units at Suakin are also listed and my friend Aidan of the Victorian Soc. is sending me the list.

Secondly, the imperial German NCOs medals were not handed out lightly-yet no campaign medals.
I can not believe a crown order medal would be given to anyone with less than 10 years service-even if they were the Kaisers' favorite horseholder on manouvers. Yet there is no Centennial medal.

As Rick R points out -an Egyptian NCO who then goes on to great glory in Germany's colonial empire, but does not receive any colonial campaign medals. Perhaps he was gone by the GSWA rebellions.

I strongly suspect a German born navy/deck officer type-or artillery type on detachment/commanding an infantry unit. These were in GREAT demand by the Egyptians as the British had no problems seconding NCOs and officers to Egyptian regiments, but apparently avoided giving the "natives" too many technical skill.

This post has been edited by Ulsterman: 09 December 2008 - 22:10

[Michael Johnson]

My memory is a little hazy, but I believe that Egyptian Army medals were named in Arabic. Certainly the later Sudan medals bear only the recipient's unit and number. I think that the earlier medals had the name as well - but also in Arabic.

I found this Arabic naming but unfortunately it gives no details.

This post has been edited by Michael Johnson: 16 June 2006 - 15:49

[MREID]

Hi All;

As a new arrival to the Club, perhaps I can be permitted to offer some additional information to this subject? I can't comment on the group as a whole but I can tell you that the Egypt medal is properly named to a soldier of the Egyptian Army. Certain issues of the medal were named in the UK before distribution to their Egyptian recipients and the naming on this example is consistent with every example that I have seen for the 1885 Suakin campaign.

No. 233 of the 5th Infantry Bn. of the Egyptian Army ( EA ) is on the medal roll and noted as being entitled to the clasp Suakin 1885. His unit arrived at Suakin in mid-1884 and remained in garrison until November 1887, fighting almost continuously against the local tribesmen who were led by the wily Osman Digna. The 5th Bn. was commanded by Kaimakam Zuhri Pasha, a veteran of the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78, and at least one British officer ( A. Haggard ) described the battalion as " very good and smart. "

It should be noted that soldiers in Egyptian society of the time didn't rate very high and when the medal rolls were submitted only their regimental numbers were recorded, their names not being deemed very important; they were just nameless felahin or peasants, after all ( ! ) However, the 1888-89 medal roll for this Battalion does include names and it gives me great pleasure to tell you that No. 233 was actually Mohamed Hussein el Zeini. Egyptian soldiers had a 4-5 year enlistment term so he was just at the tail-end of his military career. It may be significant, in light of his possible future service with the German forces that Mohamed el Zeini remained a Nafar, or Private, for his whole service with the EA.

As I wrote above, I know nothing about Imperial German awards but will just add that Egyptian soldiers wore the Khedive's Star, their national award, in front of the Egypt Medal, justly regarded as a foreign award. Hope this was of some help.

Cheers,

Mark

[Ed_Haynes]

Extraordinary information! Marhaba, shukran Mark.

This post has been edited by Ed_Haynes: 08 December 2008 - 17:53

[Rick Research]

Hallelujah and choirs of angels!

Miracles can come true!


This one always always always frustrated my late Imperial guru, George Seymour---


Hurrah!


DECADES of wondering... now resolved! Thanks Mark!!!!!

[Ulsterman]

OMG!!
BRAVO!!!
Amazing information. Is the 5th Btn. listed at Suakin as 5th btn? Or is it part of a different unit? My roll must be incomplete or in error.

Thanks!!

You should publish these!

This post has been edited by Ulsterman: 09 December 2008 - 22:15

[Wild Card]

Hello MREID

Holy ****!

I am tempted to say that I don?t believe this... but, of course, I do. I, and like many others, sincerely thank you. Along with Rick, my only regret is that George Seymour (in whose collection this bar long resided) could not have lived to witness this revelation.

You certainly have made a memorable entrance to The Forum. Welcome aboard and thank you.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

This post has been edited by Rick Research: 10 December 2008 - 13:33

[Harry Fecitt]

May I offer this quote from "German Schutztruppe in East Africa 1889-1911" by Colonel Ernst Nigmann (The Battery Press, 2005, ISBN: 0-89839-335-3) Pages 2 to 5:

"The highly experienced Imperial Commissioner found a brilliant solution when he enlisted Sudanese.

These men had served in the Egyptian Army and had proven themselves to be splendid soldiers, especially during the fighting within the Sudan. But once the English had lost the Egyptian Sudan, they disbanded a number of Egyptian regiments which were now too expensive.

Soldiers from those units found themselves wandering across the countryside with no food, and generally in miserable circumstances. These people were an obvious backbone for the formation of the new unit. They eagerly responded to the call of German recruiters, who saved them from their deplorable fate and restored them to their customary trade under arms.

Wissman sent an Arabic-speaking officer, Lieutenant Theremin, ahead to Cairo to recruit the Sudanese. When Wissman arrived there in March (1889), accompanied by Medical Officer Schmelzkopf and by Bumiller, who later served him as adjutant, Theremin had already been very successful.

The recruits included not only Sudanese who had served as enlisted personnel, but also former officers and senior NCOs. A number of Turkish police had also been permitted to enlist, as they were extremely well qualified for police service. Some of the former Egyptian officers were soon found to be quite unsuitable and had to be discharged.

With the permission of the English government, the enlisted recruits were transported to a camp in Aden under the command of German officers and NCOs, although as yet without uniforms or weapons. This camp was very colorful: the Sudanese had all stipulated that their families should come with them, and many of them, concerned that they may not find a suitable spouse in a foreign land, had quickly selected a wife from among the daughters of their homeland.

After landing from the steamer Martha on 3 May 1889, the new unit was deployed on the African shore. Only one company was allocated to Dar Es-Salaam, while the main force was concentrated at Bagamoyo, which had been abandoned by the natives after being shelled by German warships. The troops were quartered in suitable stone houses in Bagamoyo.

The unit was organized as:
WHITES
25 Officers (1 Commander, 8 Company Commanders, 13 Lieutenants, 2 Doctors, 1 Paymaster)
7 Warrant Officers
56 NCOs including Corpsmen

BLACKS
6 Companies of Sudanese of about 100 men each
1 Company of Zulus of 100 men
1 Detachment of Askari (Local natives, about 80 men transferred from the German East Africa Company)
1 Detachment of Artillery (Sudanese, about 30 men)
1 Detachment of Seamen (Somali, about 40 men)

SPECIAL (Police Service)
2 Officers and 20 men (Turks)"

Harry

[MREID]

Hello All;

Very many thanks for your warm welcome and kind words, I'm just glad that I could help with this long-standing mystery.

Ulsterman, I appreciate your frustration with the many and varied medal rolls for the various Egyptian/Sudanese campaigns. There are many dozens of unit rolls as well as a raft of " Special Rolls " which are scattered throughout the entire series. At some stage some unknown War Office clerk took all the medal rolls for the Egyptian Army, 1882-89, and had them bound into two volumes which are now held at Kew at The National Archives, ( TNA ) formerly known as the Public Record Office ( PRO. ) These two volumes are identified as WO ( War Office ) 100/71 and are available to the public, with a Reader's Ticket of course. These rolls have not been microfilmed but I have a complete copy so if anyone wants a specific page copied, please let me know and I would be happy to send you a scan. I won't offer to send the whole series because it's about 800 pages long!

Harry, what a interesting tale! I am quite intrigued to read about how the Germans recruited Sudanese ex-soldiers. The Egyptian Treasury was an unhealthy beast and on a couple of occasions, recently-raised battalions were disbanded temporarily and the soldiers left to fend for themselves. Some of these soldiers would have served in the old, pre-1883 Egyptian Army and would have been experienced veterans. However, I must admit to being a little sceptical that our man , Mohamed el Zeini, would be a likely candidate for the Germans. The word Sudan means " Land of the Blacks " and in the 19th, early 20th century a Sudanese soldier, by definition, was a black soldier. Egyptians were quite proud of their superior racial status over blacks and kept them in separate units. The first 8 infantry battalions were raised exclusively from Arabic Egyptians and black Sudanese were not enlisted until the 9th Bn. was raised in 1884, primaraily from former soldiers who had escaped from the Sudan. " Brown " Egyptians would not have served beside black Sudanese, except as officers, and I suspect that the Germans would have enlisted only the latter to serve in Africa.

All this to say that Mohamed el Zeini was an Egyptian, with 4-5 years service as a Private and he would probably not have been recruited to serve as a soldier beside men whom he would have considered racially inferior. Sadly, racism is not confined to one race or nation and seems to have existed throughout Time.I think it unlikely that he would have been selected as an NCO either. The Egyptian Army was quite good about promoting people on merit and their Sudanese battalions were well-staffed with men who had come up through the ranks, although their literacy skills may have been poor. On another point, Sudanese soldiers would not have spoken Arabic as their first language. Most Sudanese soldiers in the Egyptian Army came from the Nilotic tribes and spoke the Shilluk or Dinka language. When they joined the Egyptian Army they had to have a crash course in Arabic and to learn the concept and practice of numbers, an idea unknown in their culture.

One possible solution is that the recpient of the German awards in the medal group was missing his original Egypt Medal and simply acquired a replacement from some jeweller or scrap metal dealer. We should remember that the medal is named entirely in English and there is no reason to beleive that Mohamed el Zeini had any idea what any of this writing meant, he just recognised that it was the same medal that he had received for his military service under His Highness the Khedive. Stranger things have happened, I suppose.

Anyway, I hope I haven't blethered on too much. If anyone would like more info on the Egyptian Army of the period please give me a shout. I look forward to learning more from this fascinating forum.

Cheers,

Mark

[Rick Research]

Profound thanks to Mark and Harry!

The German awards here suggest a career pattern rather like that of the "native" British Indian army, where Indians were officers... yet any European was "superior" to their authority.

As Jeff has noted, the Prussian Crown Order Medal was given to noncommissioned officers of (usually) some long service...

but the two combatant colonial decorations ("dementedly rare" springs to mind regarding these ) suggest somebody who would very likely have ended up as a "native officer" -- from what I know of German recruiting practices in the colonies before 1900 (not much !!!) perhaps most likely after any initial duty-- in the colonial police.

Given the profound shortage of manpower in Germany's colonial forces, police were used as often as troops as quote unquote army units.

The two (and especially that gold!!!) Kriegerverdienstmedaillen would have sped this man up through the ranks, whatever his origins back home.

The recruiting offer to move families as well is news to me and suggests why we now find the purely German ribbons on this lovingly cared for group. Chances are he remained in German East Africa for the rest of his-- or its-- lifetime. Some British soldier may have lifted this in 1914... or perhaps it turned up in a stall some tourist brought home in the 1920s. There wasn't any "back story" on this when it appeared as an anonymous bar almost 30 years ago.

[Ulsterman]

Makes one wonder if one can confirm via the "back door" German Colonial archives.....
I would suppose there might well be muster lists for the original Schutztruppen somewhere... especially if Sudanese were contracted and paid for via the Treasury.
Accountants have always demanded detailed receipts for cash spent.

By the way-HINT HINT_
This would be a splendid JOMSA, OMRS and/or BDOS article.
If only we had a few photos of the original 600 recruits.

Makes one wonder if there was an old Zulu @ 1905 wearing a German and Boer war medal together who had been at Isaduhwana. Wouldn''t THAT have been a man to meet!

Thanks!! A GREAT thread.

This post has been edited by Ulsterman: 10 December 2008 - 17:16

[Chris Dale]

What a great thread! Firstly thanks very much to WildCard for letting us see this bar. Secondly thanks very much to MReid for the information on Egyptian medals and amazingly indentifying the original owner!

My interest is in the German colonial troops and from this angle I hope to add some information. As Harry has said numbers of Sudanese soldiers were recruited from former Anglo-Egyptian service to form the Wissmanntruppe in 1889 to serve in German East Africa. The bulk of the troops were Sudanese, but some Egyptians and Greeks were also recruited as officers. From what I've read and seen they were still allowed to wear their old Anglo-Egyptian medals while in German service so this bar is in line with regulations.

There's a couple of photos of these men wearing both German and A/E medals on page 7 of this document from the Traditionsverband.de website-
http://www.tradition...re_fuehrung.pdf
Can anyone identify the medals in these photos? Again they appear to wear their German medals at the front of the bar.

Ulsterman was asking about photos of the original Sudanese, here's one attached of Lt Theremin (whom Harry mentioned) with the askaris during recruitment in Cairo in early 1889. This photo is from the Frankfurt University archives.

And sorry, no Ulsterman it's unlikely any of them were at Isandhlwana. The "Zulu" askaris recruited for them Wissmanntruppe were from a spit off group of the Zulu nation and were from Portuguese East Africa.

Cheers
Chris Dale

Attached File(s)

•  wissmanntruppe.jpg (50.46K)
  Number of downloads: 2

This post has been edited by Chris Dale: 16 December 2008 - 23:57

[MREID]

Hello Chris;

Thanks for your kind words to a newcomer and, yes, I agree that this thread has proven most interesting, I've learned so much already!

These are terrific photos of the two Egyptian officers pictured on page 7 of the your article. The gentleman on the left, Captain Miram, is wearing two medals that are familiar to me; the centre award is the Khedive's Star and was awarded by the ruler of Egypt to those soldiers, sailors and civilians who fought his enemies between 1882 and 1891. The medal that is closest to his shoulder appears to be the Egypt Medal, with one clasp, as awarded by the British government for operations in Egypt in 1882 and in the Sudan, 1884-89. I'm afraid that I know nothing about the remaining medal, though suspect that it was awarded by the Germans.

This officer is wearing his Khedive's Star and Egypt Medal in the correct Egyptian order of precedence; the Star was awarded by his sovereign while the Egypt Medal was awarded by a foreign power and therefore goes after the Star. This was standard for Egyptian soldiers. I suspect that the medal at the " front " of his group was given by the government which he was currently serving and therefore take precedence.

The officer on the right, Achmed Fahim, wears the Egypt Medal, with two clasps, and the Khedive's Star too, but in a different sequence, with the British Egypt Medal before the Khedive's Star. He may have copied this sequence from seeing British officers wearing them that way, or maybe he didn't like the Khedive, or maybe he, or his tailor, didn't know or care! I don't know, but he appears to wear another medal that is similar to that worn by Captain Miram.

When I've finished writing this I'll have a look at the medal rolls for the Egyptian Army and see if I can find these two officers. Not all of the rolls have survived, I'm afraid, so I may have no luck but I'll certainly try. By the way, do you know where I could obtain copies of these two images, please? I would love to add them to a manuscript that I'm currently preparing.

Thanks a bunch, I'll go see if I can find these two " Effendis " now!

Cheers,

Mark

What a great thread! Firstly thanks very much to WildCard for letting us see this bar. Secondly thanks very much to MReid for the information on Egyptian medals and amazingly indentifying the original owner!

My interest is in the German colonial troops and from this angle I hope to add some information. As Harry has said numbers of Sudanese soldiers were recruited from former Anglo-Egyptian service to form the Wissmanntruppe in 1889 to serve in German East Africa. The bulk of the troops were Sudanese, but some Egyptians and Greeks were also recruited as officers. From what I've read and seen they were still allowed to wear their old Anglo-Egyptian medals while in German service so this bar is in line with regulations.

There's a couple of photos of these men wearing both German and A/E medals on page 7 of this document from the Traditionsverband.de website-
http://www.tradition...re_fuehrung.pdf
Can anyone identify the medals in these photos? Again they appear to wear their German medals at the front of the bar.

Ulsterman was asking about photos of the original Sudanese, here's one attached of Lt Theremin (whom Harry mentioned) with the askaris during recruitment in Cairo in early 1889. This photo is from the Frankfurt University archives.

And sorry, no Ulsterman it's unlikely any of them were at Isandhlwana. The "Zulu" askaris recruited for them Wissmanntruppe were from a spit off group of the Zulu nation and were from Portuguese East Africa.

Cheers
Chris Dale

[MREID]

Hi again;

Just a follow-up to the earlier post. I checked the medal rolls for the Egyptian Army and found three possible matches for one of the officers whose portrait, with medals, appears on page 7, Achmed Fahim;

1) There is a Bimbashi ( Major ) Ahmet Fatmi listed on the roll for the Staff and he was entitled to the Egypt Medal with the clasps GEMAIZAH and TOSKI.
2) There is a Lieutenant Ahmed Fahmy who earned the medal, no clasp, with the 1st Infantry Bn.
3) And another Lieutenant Ahmed Fahmy in the 7th Infantry Bn. who is also listed as receiving the medal but with no clasp.

Although there isn't a direct match with the original names we have to remember that there is no exact English spelling of Arabic names, look at how many different transliterations there are for the name Mohamed/ Mohammed, Mohamet, etc. My bet is that the man in the picture is probably 1) as he earned the medal with two clasps, as depicted. 2) and 3) may even be the same man.

No match for Captain Miram, I'm afraid, but he may have been commissioned from the ranks or the medal roll with his name may have become lost over the years. Sorry.

Anyway, I hope this was of some interest.

Mark

Hello Chris;

Thanks for your kind words to a newcomer and, yes, I agree that this thread has proven most interesting, I've learned so much already!

These are terrific photos of the two Egyptian officers pictured on page 7 of the your article. The gentleman on the left, Captain Miram, is wearing two medals that are familiar to me; the centre award is the Khedive's Star and was awarded by the ruler of Egypt to those soldiers, sailors and civilians who fought his enemies between 1882 and 1891. The medal that is closest to his shoulder appears to be the Egypt Medal, with one clasp, as awarded by the British government for operations in Egypt in 1882 and in the Sudan, 1884-89. I'm afraid that I know nothing about the remaining medal, though suspect that it was awarded by the Germans.

This officer is wearing his Khedive's Star and Egypt Medal in the correct Egyptian order of precedence; the Star was awarded by his sovereign while the Egypt Medal was awarded by a foreign power and therefore goes after the Star. This was standard for Egyptian soldiers. I suspect that the medal at the " front " of his group was given by the government which he was currently serving and therefore take precedence.

The officer on the right, Achmed Fahim, wears the Egypt Medal, with two clasps, and the Khedive's Star too, but in a different sequence, with the British Egypt Medal before the Khedive's Star. He may have copied this sequence from seeing British officers wearing them that way, or maybe he didn't like the Khedive, or maybe he, or his tailor, didn't know or care! I don't know, but he appears to wear another medal that is similar to that worn by Captain Miram.

When I've finished writing this I'll have a look at the medal rolls for the Egyptian Army and see if I can find these two officers. Not all of the rolls have survived, I'm afraid, so I may have no luck but I'll certainly try. By the way, do you know where I could obtain copies of these two images, please? I would love to add them to a manuscript that I'm currently preparing.

Thanks a bunch, I'll go see if I can find these two " Effendis " now!

Cheers,

Mark

[Ulsterman]

Interest!
very much so.
Thank you Gentlemen. This is one of the best internet discussions of the year!
Great forum this-