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    Gordon Williamson

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    Posts posted by Gordon Williamson

    1. Anyone have some examples of post war re-issued Urkunde's they would be able to post?

      Thanks for the info Gordon :beer:

      I don't believe that award documents were "re-issued" as such, but former soldiers could on providing proof of entitlement, have a form of Urkunde made up and notarised by their local State authorities certifying that they had won the award. I've seen several of these from Knight's Cross winners. I'll try to dig out some that I have photocopies of.

    2. hi Gordon,

      about the medals, did the government issue them or did the veterans had to go to some special government shop to purchase them?

      thanks,

      K

      1957 awards were never issued, always purchased at the soldiers own expense either direct from manufacturers like Steinhauer or from retail shops like uniform outfitters.

    3. The dates - Souval at left. The horizontal top bar to the "3" on the souval is much thinner, and the angled parts to the top of the numeral "1" are flat. On the other, the top bar to the "3" is thicker, and the tops to the "1" are concaved. Also visible here the point at which the beading from the arms meet has a sharply defined ridge but is flat on the Souval.

      On the obverse, the "9" numerals are fatter than Souvals, and the "1"s have a longer concaved angled edge as against the shorter flat edge of the Souval.

      The Souval numeral is also flatter, like the Swastika, and weaker. Like the Souval Knight's Cross, the swastika is well below the beaded edge, but on the other is flush with the beaded edge.

      Very similar but more than enough differences in core and frame to be certain its not Souval.

      The 1914 was made by the same tooling as the 1939. Not any closer to knowing who made them, but definitely not Souval.

    4. I know the loop isn't right but the flat wide beading suggests that it's a Souval style frame. I woud be curious of the measurements of the frame.

      Happy to say thats at least one thing I can be 100% sure of - its not Souval. Whoever made these also made the 1939 GK, I have this also. Having had the chance to compare it side by side with a postwar Souval GK, its definitely not from the same tooling.

      Here is the 1914 alongside the 1939, with apologies for bringing swastika-thingies to the Imperial area.

    5. I agree. I have no idea on what evidence Geissler bases his claim that these were made by Godet (1870 GKs also exist from the same tooling).

      The full range of 1870s was also made during the TR and could only have been made as museum copies rather than replacements, and some of those TR 1870s I have seen have been inferior in quality seen alongside original period pieces.

    6. Absolutely not ! Found on some but by no means all. Even the better copies have several subtle differences between them and the originals which are more valid tests of originality than these lines.

      Unfortunately in todays collecting climate features like this are often seized on as absolute evidence one way or the other and good pices condemned as a result.

      Do you have any pics of the badge ?

    7. I have to admit I don't like this crude type of hinge on KM badges. I remember in the early-mid 70s there were dozens of zink First Pattern E-Boats circulating with this set up, also with the small "o" mark that many attribute to S&L. I remember at one of the Nottingham Fairs that loads of the dealers had them, but none of the dealers would buy them. Rumour at the time was that they may have been genuine left over badges, but finished off post war with these weird hinges when stocks of good ones were exhausted.

      Patzwall's Militaria magazine ran an article on E-Boat Badges a few years back which featured them with this style hinge and the feedback in a subsequent edition included a statement that they were in fact fakes.

    8. Hello,

      I am sorry to revive an old topic, but Gordon's HONOR ROLL document shows a date of september 1943,

      since the clasp itself was not instituded before the end of january 1944,it is not really a "clasp'"award document.

      I do not believe that it was hand signed by H.HITLER .

      The same signature is found on my example, and it is printed.

      Robert

      [attachmentid=43803]

      Correct of course.

      In this and many other cases, the Honour Roll Clasp was given as a physical/visual symbol of the award, restrospectively to soldiers who had already been listed in the Roll of Honour.

    9. I'm pleased to welcome two new club hosts with whose names many of you will be familiar.

      Bob Coleman will be hosting this new section for the SS, Police and Paramilitary organisations as well as Third Reich Political and Civil Awards where a welcome message has already been posted with some details of Bob's interests.

      In this section, Bob will be aided by Don Bible, probably the worlds greatest authority on Police and Gestapo Warrant discs and the author of numerous publications on the subject. Don also has an excellent website on the subject at http://users.adelphia.net/%7Edonbible/

      In his own words, Don describes how he became interested in this fascinating subject.

      "A few days ago I had my 70th birthday. My interest in WWII militaria and my first items acquired, goes back 60 of those years. When my three uncles returned from the European Theater in 1946, each of them gave me a few German pieces that they brought home with them. One of my uncles went into the army in 1942, and was in the invasion of North Africa. He gave me a couple of small pieces brought from there.

      Then as I grew up other interests became more important to me, and the military collecting took a back seat for a few years, although I often read WWII articles, and often worked with and talked with veterans. The former soldiers always held a special place in my heart because of my affection for my own three uncles. One of those uncles is still living today. He turned 90 years-old this year.

      Then in 1966...20 years after I first got the militaria collecting bug...I went to Germany as a civilian employee for an American company, working with the American Army. I was sent to the German town of Kaiserslautern to work. The city is located in the Palatinate, in the German State of Rheinland/Pfalz. My wife and I loved the area, and made a lot of friends, both German and American.

      We had a German landlord as we lived on the German economy. He was a veteran of the Eastern front. We became good friends. He helped me through many of the problem areas that foreigners always face when dealing with an unfamiliar culture. To be sure, there were some problems, but the adventure of living in this new land far more than made up for the few inconveniences.

      I arrived in Germany in November of 1966, just as winter was beginning. I soon noticed the German police winter uniforns and their similarity to German WWII uniforms. It was almost like being transported three decades back in time. I was fascinated with the German police....especially the Kripo. They often were called on to help the American MPs deal with altercations in the area of the GI bars, called the "Iron Triangle" near the Kaiserslautern Bahnhof.

      The sight of a German criminal police detective flashing a "Dienstmarke" (warrant disc) on a chain, was a new and curious experience for me. I suppose it was there that I first became fascinated with warrant discs. I later learned that this was an old police custom, that had been utilized by German police detectives for well over a century....including the German Secret State Police (Geheime Staatspolizei or GESTAPO) of World War II infamy.

      I never acquired a police warrant disc while living in Germany, because I never saw one for sale, but I always remembered them, after returning home to Tennessee a few years later. Every now and then in the early 1970s, I would see a "Gestapo" warrant disc for sale at a gun show, but the quality never seemed to be what I expected from the German workmanship, I had come to admire.

      I finally decided that I was going to educate myself about the German Police warrant discs. I read everything I could find on the subject....which was very little. I talked with many militaria collectors, and got a different answer from almost every one. Later, I realized that one or two of them had been on the right track, but at the time I didn't know which ones they were.

      I began correspondence with two or three branches of the German State Archives. Most of the time my inquiries were patiently answered. Finally I learned of a couple of German Police historians who were also collectors of warrant discs. I had learned to speak, read and write a token amount of the German language during the time I lived there, and it now came in very handy.

      One German Kripo detective took me under his wing and gave me a lot of pointers in how to recognize an original warrant disc. Later I found an American collector or two, who had a few original pieces. They too, were still seeking more knowledge and we began comparing notes. They helped me, and I helped them.

      In 1988, I took early retirement, which gave me a lot more time to devote to my research. I became a member of the "Deutsche Gesellschaft f?r Polizeigeschichte e. V. (German Police Historical Society). That organization opened a lot of doors for me in Germany. I soon began taking trips to Germany at every opportunity. I made many friends among the German police members of the association.

      Some of the higher ranking members who had authority to do so, took me into areas that would have otherwise been closed to me. I visited a German Police training academy, where the director arranged for a long-time employee to translate documents for me. He was a Britisher who had married a German lady shortly after the war, and had become a 40 year employee of the German Police training academy. The director of the academy invited me to spend time with him as a house guest of he and his wife.

      A German Kripo detective friend took me to his home where I visited him on two occasions over the years. He had a great collection of German Police warrant discs which he allowed me to handle for hours on end. He later took me to the German Customs Museum where I was given the same privilege.

      The token amount of German that I manged to learn in the mid-1960s has paid off handsomely for me over the last 40 years. It has enabled me to visit and interview the widow and son of a member of the Gestapo, and acquire many photos and personal documents that belonged to him. It has also made it possible for me to carry on an interesting and lengthy correspondence with the son of another Gestapo operative. I have owned the Gestapo warrant discs of the fathers of both of those men.

      I consider myself very blessed to have been able to visit these people and places and to have learned a small part of what there is to know about German Third Reich era police warrant discs and ID cards.

      I will try to use that knowledge to help fellow collectors to avoid the pitfalls of the many counterfeit pieces in this esoteric field of collecting."

      I'm sure you will all join in extending Don a warm welcome to GMIC.

    10. The 1944 rank list has three Stllers,

      Fregattenkapit?n Alfred Stiller

      Leutnant (Ing) G?nther Stiller

      Oberleutnant Kurt Stiller (Marinenachrichtenoffizier)

      If this was a case of a junior officer keeping the same tunic and upgrading the sleeve rank rings as he progressed through the ranks, then Alfred Stiller as Freg Kap in 1944 might just have ended the war in 1945 as a Kap zur S.

      Of course there may have been another Stiller who was KIA before this 1944 Rank List was publlished.

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