Jump to content
Gentleman's Military Interest Club

Dave Wilkinson

Silver Membership
  • Content count

  • Joined

  • Last visited

Everything posted by Dave Wilkinson

  1. I can confirm that they are not British Police Officers. The Italian police did, and some still do, wear British style police helmets. Dave.
  2. Here in the UK, formal uniform for certainly the police and fire services either has been or is being scrapped. For two main reasons. Firstly, there is no longer the cash to pay for it and secondly (apart from perhaps London) emergency services seldom if ever have the spare capacity or time to take part in any formal occasions. Insofar as the police are concerned the concept of "mess dress" has never really taken hold. I can recall attending a command course at the Police Staff College several years ago where formal "dining in" nights were regularly held and apart from members of the former RHKP and some (not all) members of the RUC, the rest of us wore dinner suits without any additional adornment. Dave.
  3. Tony, If that's what you paid for it, then its good value. It would have cost much more than that if you were to ask a supplier to make it for you. A nicely made item. Well done for having the foresight to grab it! Dave.
  4. Looking at it, I suspect that it was made within the last year or so. Dave.
  5. Matt, Warwickshire Police have a History Society who may be able to help you with the ex Warwickshire Constable. They have a very basic web site with a "contact" tab. Best wishes, Dave.
  6. No one seems to have bothered to answer this enquiry, so I'll provide the details I have for William MAUNDER. He joined on 26th December 1893 (Warrant No:- 79218) and was posted to "E" Division (Holborn). He retired on pension on 6th February 1922 and at that time he was serving as a Sergeant in the 1st Division (Woolwich Dockyard/Arsenal). In 1897 he was a Constable in the 1st division. In 1902 he was still a Constable in that Division and in 1911 he was a Sergeant in the 1st Division. According to the book compiled by Mr. J.H.F. Kemp he was entitled to the 1911 Coronation Medal in addition to those you have. I hope this is helpful. Dave. PS. It looks as if some industrious individual has cleaned the medals, which will have devalued them somewhat.
  7. Firstly, the surviving personal records for those who served in the provincial police forces of the UK are, in the main, very scant. The Metropolitan Police records are reasonably well preserved and someone on here may be able to help you. The Cheshire Constabulary maintain a museum with website. They will provide details from any records they have, but there are charges to be paid. Go to their website for details. I doubt that you will have much success with the others. Most of the provincial forces have deposited their personnel records with their County or Local Record Offices. In quite a few cases, the records have either been intentionally destroyed or were lost as a result of enemy action during the last war. Best of luck! Dave.
  8. The British Overseas Territories police forces are not awarded the PLS & GC medal. Instead the receive the BOT Police Long service medal (I think that's its title). It replaced the old Colonial Police Medal several years ago. There are also bars to it for years in addition. They are also entitled to the QPM. Your photos show the Royal Gib. Police Commissioner and also the Gib. Defence Police (green & white cap bands). The Chief Officer of the GDP is a seconded UK officer and he is wearing the PLS &GC medal. Dave.
  9. The arm badge is "generic", in other words it was worn by a great number of forces during the Great War. It would have been a manufacturers "stock" item probably manufactured by Hiatt & Co. of Birmingham. The number shown would have been that allocated to the wearer and would have enabled identification in the event of someone wishing to make a complaint etc. Dave.
  10. A new book has just been published entitled "Special Constabulary Insignia of England & Wales". Softback. A4 size. 138 pages depicting over 750 colour photos of Special Constabulary badges from the Great War to the present day. Plus 38 black and white period photos featuring members of the Special Constabulary. The book has been privately published and is of a limited print run. For anyone interested the price is £25 per copy. This is inclusive of UK postage. Airmail postage outwith the UK will be extra. Payment via PAYPAL (family & friends). PM me if you would like a copy.
  11. A very nice glimpse of times past in South Australia. Many thanks for sharing. Dave.
  12. 1919 Police Strike

    Yes, the Watch Committee minutes are at the Central Library in William Brown Street. The lady who looks after the Merseyside Police historical records will not tackle the job. She does not have the time (or indeed the inclination). I have a contact at Police HQ who also has an interest and he's tried to give her a nudge (several times) without success. Dave.
  13. 1919 Police Strike

    I understand that Merseyside Police have details of all the strikers. However, they are not in the form of a list as such. What they have are several thousands of of index cards which would need to be researched to collate who did and who didn't strike. The key to the issue is to identify which strikers did not return to duty after the Head Constable gave his order to return to duty, and who were later instantly dismissed. Without doubt, at the time (1919) there must have been a list compiled for pay and other purposes. However, it would seem that no longer exists. If you were to examine the Liverpool Watch Committee minutes you will find various mentions of strikers making applications for re-employment and for the grant of pensions post 1919 through (believe it or not) to the 1950's. In Liverpool no striker (after dismissal) was ever re-appointed to the City Police and none were ever given their pension. As an aside one very young Constable who did go on strike, Joseph William Teesdale SMITH, did return to duty when ordered by the Head Constable. Joe SMITH subsequently became Chief Constable of Liverpool in 1959 and retired in November 1964. How ironic is that? Dave.
  14. Welcome Iain! Best of luck. I wonder whether the National Archives at Kew will have any info.? Best wishes, Dave.
  15. Pete,That is interesting! The badge on your man's cap looks as if it is in bullion wire. I'd be happier if the NMM badge was in white metal as opposed to brass/gilt. I say that because if it was in white metal it would match the white metal buttons on the tunic. The Metpol. always wore white metal badges pre. 1935 ish apart from the blacked over helmet plates. The badge illustrated would be more likely to be worn by the RN (or similar) rather than police. What do you think?Dave.
  16. Pete, I'm attaching a photo of a Metpol. Thames Div. man of the same period as your photo. the wording on his shoulder reads "Metropolitan Police". the jacket is a "reefer" design as opposed to a tunic. In all probability the same pattern cap and reefer would have been supplied from the central clothing store to the Dockyard Divs. for those men who did duty there afloat. I've never seen a specific "dockyard" cap badge and almost certainly the anchor badge (identical to the Thames Div.) would have been worn. The photo of the Metpol. Dockyard badges may be of interest. Shown is an example of the shoulder patch. Dave.
  17. I think you will find that he is a bandsman. The various divisions of the Metpol. invariably all had their own band. Although they wore their everyday uniforms their headgear often differed as indeed did the cap badges. These were privately purchased from band funds and were not Metpol. issue as such. As to the "water branch". They would have worn a very soft peaked cap without stiffening. The badge was a simple fouled anchor in metal. A very ornate cap such as your man is wearing would be totally out of keeping when traversing the waterway of a dockyard but worn by a bandsman would be quite impressive. I have a photograph of a Metpol. member of the Thames Div. wearing a cap such as that described. I will attach it later for your information. Dave.
  18. I think you will find that he is a member of the Dockyard Police Band. See the appended group photo of the Devonport Dockyard Met. Police Band which is taken some years, I would suggest, after yours. As you can see, they are all wearing senior officer style caps. Their badge appears to be a KC crowned star with an applied lyre in the centre. I hope this is helpful. Your Pc 52 may indeed be in this photo. Dave.

    The photo indicates that these officers are from Los Angeles. Dave.
  20. The cap badge worn by those sporting peaked caps resembles that worn by the Chinese Maritime Customs Service. The service was widely populated by British expatriate senior officers. I can't see any indication that those depicted are Hong Kong Police officers. I hope this is helpful. Dave.
  21. Michael, Many thanks for looking this up for us. Much appreciated! Dave.
  22. Apropos the use of a crown on a canal company police badge. It would seem that the Regents Canal Company Police used a crown on their helmet plate, presumably the final version prior to their demise. Dave.
  23. The matter was decided formally in Fisher v Oldham Corporation 1930. A Constable is an independent servant of the Crown, not the servant of any local authority. Of course there are different views, and differing interpretation of our laws that is why we have a busy court system and seemingly ever wealthy lawyers. Dave.
  24. So on the basis of what you say, despite the fact that there is no evidence of a canal police force using the Crown on their badge, if they wanted to do so they could, even without asking. Personally, I don't follow the premise that some railway police forces were "allowed" to put the Crown on their badge because of service to Victoria (the Queen, not the railway station). It has always been the case that persons who are attested as Constables under an enabling Act of Parliament are, whilst executing the duties of that office, Crown servants, irrespective of who paid their wages. Indeed, the wording of the Oath requires the person being sworn to attest that "I will faithfully serve our Sovereign Lady the Queen in the Office of Constable....". That oath alone makes service to the Crown unquestionable and takes primacy over whether a particular railway company's police regularly stood guard over the Royal train or whatever. The view I take is that it was simply a matter of choice for the individual police force as to whether the Sovereign's Crown was incorporated as part of their insignia. A fair number of the former Borough and County Forces did not utilise "Crowned" badges, nor was there a requirement for them to do so. Having been a member of a non-Home Office police force for some 20 years prior to retirement I can attest to the fact that some of these organisations do get a little, shall we say agitated, about whether they can or can't incorporate the Crown on their badge. Having been privy to written legal advice on the subject, I can confirm that it is a non issue, the basis for which lies in the previous paragraph. As to the badge under discussion, it probably has no connection with a police force at all and in all probability was utilised by a Government department either at home or overseas. Traditionally, a "chain" is used as part of Customs and Excise insignia and I would lean towards the badge being used by a colonial Customs service or similar. E.g. "British Tientsin Customs" Dave.
  25. What I can say is that the badge & medal (the bottom two items) are not related to the City of London Police. Dave.