Dave Wilkinson

Norman,

Very interesting. I've no doubt the family will be indebted to you for clarifying the details of Mr. Sutherland's service, and in particular for giving an indication as to why he was awarded the "foreign" medals.

Dave. 

If your man was from Lanarkshire, he would be wearing this cap badge.

The photo does not appear to be of a member of the Lanarkshire Constabulary. That force had quite distinctive cap badges consisting of a double headed eagle from formation in 1857 through to demise in 1975. They never wore at any time the Scottish National Cap Badge.

A search of the Home Office Medal Roll of the recipients of the 1937 Coronation Medal shows that at the time of the award, William Swanson Sutherland, was serving as a Sergeant in the Glasgow City Police. In all probability he spent his entire career with Glasgow. He is not, as already stated, wearing Lanarkshire uniform. 

One other point I should make is that during this man's service there was no such rank as "Chief Inspector" in Glasgow. The rank between Inspector and Superintendent was "Lieutenant".  

I regret I'm not able to identify the medal you ask about. 

2 hours ago, filfoster said:

Dave: Thanks; the photo was from a CLP uniform display online. Didn't catch the helmet plate. 

So, the numbers would have been worn from the 1880's on, at least?

Yes, they have always worn brass fittings on everything right from their formation. Whistle chains, buttons, numerals/letters, belt buckles, rank insignia, the lot. Nothing white metal or chrome. It is what they are famous (certainly in the UK) for. They have always been "different" and have always stood out like a sore thumb for their unique uniform.

Whilst all the other forces in Scotland, England & Wales wear black & white diced cap bands the City Police wear red and white. 

Dave.

The photo appears to show Metropolitan Police officers, not City of London.

City of London Police have always used brass/anodised buttons and numerals on their uniforms.

Dave. 

Jack,

If you will tell me what period of Metpol. insignia history you are interested in I will try to upload an image of the appropriate board. The Met. have had a wide variety of badges etc since 1829, too many for one single display. If you send me a PM I will send you a further image of the City of London badges which you may be able to enlarge. I hope you enjoyed the book. Dave Dean's website on the City Police is, as you say, well worth a visit.

Dave. 

14 hours ago, filfoster said:

The photo which you have shown displays the correct pattern helmet plate for the period you are referring to.

I'm attaching for your information, a photo of the various City of London insignia items worn almost since the force was formed.

Dave.

20 hours ago, filfoster said:

Dave: Thank you.  Are these wide cloth loops in the cloth of the coat or thread loops in the band color?

Are the loops placed at the opposite front and back of the sleeve?  Is there a picture of these?

Sorry for all the bother but I'm setting up a display and need to know what to sew on. Thanks!

See the attached photo. There are loops front and back of the sleeve.

Dave.

The tunics are correctly tailored to accept the armlets via two loops of material which are fitted to the lower sleeve of the tunic.

Dave.

Thank you for your further message.

The information I give is taken from an undated and unpublished manuscript which was written in approximately 1972. It is titled "History of Metropolitan Police Uniforms & Equipment" by Norman W.H. Fairfax (Executive Officer of the Metropolitan Police Civilian Staff) and Victor L.H. Wilkinson (Chief Superintendent of the Metropolitan Police). The version I have is a very poor photocopy.

The manuscript refers throughout to photographic images which it was intended to be included in the final publication and indeed I have over the years seen several of these images which were obviously specifically taken for inclusion. However, none of these accompanied the manuscript itself. For whatever reason the book was never published. I know not for certain, but perhaps funding was an issue.

There is nothing further I can add to the discussion insofar as the badge itself is concerned. What I would say is that there is ample evidence that many of the badges (in various forms) worn by the MSC were not issued by the force, but were in fact privately purchased. The MSC, particularly during the Great War and after was often peopled, especially at senior rank, by wealthy, well connected and often titled individuals who would simply have a divisional emblem or badge made at their own expense for issue to their men. Officialdom appeared, on the face of it, to turn a blind eye to much of this individuality. 

I hope this is helpful.

Dave. 

I don't quite know why you should assume that there are versions showing colours other than blue enamel. My original post (shown below) makes that quite clear.

'These stars were awarded to those who had presented themselves for attestation in the Metropolitan Special Constabulary BEFORE midnight on 31st December 1914. They were worn on the left forearm only. For those ranks of Inspector and above the "ring" surrounding the centre and the centre itself was enamelled dark blue with the wording "Metropolitan 1914" and the inter twined "SC" centre showing in relief.' 

Looking at your previous posts contained within this thread, you really seem to be going off, for some reason, on a totally irrelevant tangent here.

Dave.

Please find attached a photo of the example I have as requested.

Dave.

They are entitled to be recommended for the general civilian gallantry awards of the UK and the recommendation can be made by anyone to the appropriate Government Dept.

The RNLI is a voluntary organisation and as such it would probably not be appropriate for them to be singled out for a Govt. long service award. Whilst the RNLI is the largest of such organisations, there are a great many other voluntary lifeboat & life saving associations up and down the coast of the UK who perform the same role but who operate independently of the RNLI. If you single one out, it would open the floodgates to a whole raft of voluntary associations seeking Govt. recognition for their members long service.

Don't forget, their individual service can be recognised (and often is) by awards of the MBE and BEM, as appropriate.

Dave.   

Depending on who currently hold the contract for producing the LS&GC medal (and it may not be the Royal Mint), this could have a bearing on it. The delays may not be at force level, but at the Govt. Depts. honours secretariats. The devolved governments almost certainly deal with them differently. Add to that the different procedure which applies to medals awarded to the non-Home Office forces (Railway, Ports, Tunnels, Nuclear etc). Perhaps the large production of jubilee medals has had an impact.

Dave.  

I certainly could envisage a long serving RNLI crewman wearing his medal in uniform. Some RNLI members are also Auxiliary Coastguards and even members of the Special Constabulary. Whilst not military uniform, the basic principal applies.

Dave.

It probably doesn't help much, but this "Lion" emblem was used extensively by the former Denbighshire Constabulary, prior to 1967. Denbighshire is a county in the Principality of Wales (UK).

Denbighshire Constabulary ceased to exist in 1967 upon amalgamation with other police forces in the area.

See below an extensive collection of badges from that police force.

Dave.  

RNLI medals are in the same catagory as Royal Humane Society, Liverpool Shipwreck & Humane Society, RSPCA and other similar medals. They can be worn on a uniform but on the right side.

Dave. 

The surnames SMITH and HARRIS are amongst the most common in the UK and this together with the lack of any accompanying documentation would render any research, I would suggest, extremely difficult if not impossible. In addition "service records" for members of the special constabulary (unlike those of the regular force) are invariably destroyed following their ceasing to hold office.

Dave. 

I worked with two officers who were denied their PLS&GC medals because of conviction for discipline offences. In other words when they reached their 22 year point of service they did not get the medal. Their discipline transgressions occurred during their early years of service and they subsequently had to serve for twenty two years from the date of their conviction before getting their medals. They were both just able to do this before going on pension. Had the transgressions occurred later in their service, they would probably have reached retirement before achieving the required 22 year threshold and would not have received the medal. So, in the case you mention this was probably the reason why there is no PLS&GC medal for the man you mention. Or, was the medal never mounted with the group and has become separated? That's another possibility.

Dave.  

Very interesting. But, I don't think that he joined Kent Police in 1932, as suggested by you. It seems that he joined the Folkestone Borough Police in 1932. That force was temporarily  amalgamated into the Kent County Constabulary on 1st April 1943 under the Defence Regulations. The amalgamation was ratified as permanent on the 1st April 1947. So, all his policing activities prior to the 1st April 1943 were as a member of the Folkestone Borough Police.

He was fortunate not to find himself embroiled in the following. In October 1940 allegations were made by a member of the public that members of the Folkestone Borough Police were engaged in criminal conduct whilst on duty (shop and house breaking), and had been systematically doing so since 1935. Following an enquiry by Detectives from New Scotland Yard, the Chief Constable of Folkestone,  Alfred S. Beesley (a former Metropolitan Police officer) was required to resign. Five Constables made statements admitting involvement and resigned. A Sergeant denied involvement but was dismissed as being found unfit for office. It was decided not to take them to court, as in the event of the charges not being found proved, it would then be difficult to convict by way of discipline and rid the force of their presence. 

A nice addition to your collection with such supporting paperwork.

Dave.  

You've cracked it then!

Dave.

So, in the whole of the UK in 1939, there was only one person named William Ross serving as a Constable? If that's the case you seem to have the right man. 

Dave. 

Try the National Archives at Kew. As you are (or appear to be) in London, a personal visit would probably be the best course of action. As an aside, William Ross is quite a common name. How have you made the Admiralty Civil Police connection? Did the medal come with the named box or similar?

Bear in mind that the Admiralty Civil Police ceased to exist in 1949 and was re-named the Admiralty Constabulary at that time. The medal in question was not created until 1951, so it will have been awarded to him (assuming its the right man) whilst a member of the latter force (Constabulary not Civil Police). I hope this is helpful.

Dave.

12 hours ago, dpast32 said:

Hi Guys,  Here's an 'possible' candidate for the SCLS with 1939 Clasp to Ernest Wright ? It probably isn't, but there are a few interesting points. Also, I'm not certain as the the actual naming aspects of this particular Series. Was the recipient's middle initial included, if indeed he had one ? THANKS

 

                 Best,     dpast32

This relates to a regular officer and not a Special Constable, so its not likely to be your man. Insofar as the naming of SC long service medals is concerned, sometimes the first name only is shown and then the first letter of of any middle name etc. But, on many occasions just the first name and surname, with any other middle name initials omitted. The format depends upon the documentation submitted by the Commissioner/Chief Constable when application for the medal is made.  

Dave.

On 13/10/2021 at 21:20, dpast32 said:

Just for the proverbial record, here's the scan of the 1939 U.K. Census, of which I had referred to above. His name again was William LANG, Born 10 March 1883. Perhaps viewing the additional entry will make some sense to someone here ? THANK YOU !!

 

               Best,   dpast32 

Looking at the Census Record, I think that it actually says, "RASC 21 years" if correct, "RASC" would mean "Royal Army Service Corps". Nothing to do with the Special Constabulary. It suggests that he held the rank of "Private" and was in receipt of a pension.

Dave.