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Alan Baird

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Everything posted by Alan Baird

  1. Hello, I find I have a very strange mystery which I was hoping somebody can help to solve. Information and idea's most welcome. Metropolitan Police Constable William Ind was attached to the Metropolitan Police Commissioner's Office from 14/1/1893 to 18/4/1904. Special duties involved protecting Government departments, public companies or private individuals etc and he was assigned to be, ''Employed at War Dept. Station, Selby.'' We know this because that information is clearly detailed on his pension records from 1904....but he was employed to work at the War Dept, Station at Selby, in Yorkshire. The England Census of 1901, the records show that PC William Ind and family as residing at the White House, at Barlby, in Yorkshire. That entry includes PC William Ind [42], his wife Eliza [47] and their children Clara Elizabeth [11] and Daisy Priscilla Ind [9]. PC William Ind's Metropolitan Police pension records dated 18/4/1904 detail his current address as being, ''1 Victoria Terrace, Barlby Road, Selby.'' It also confirms that this is the address he intends to reside at on leaving the Metropolitan Police. It also confirms that his pension is to be paid into the, ''Selby Post Office.'' Therefore we can evidence with the various records that he was on special duties at the War Dept. Station Selby, in Yorkshire from at least 1901 to 1904 and probably for a much longer period than that. In the England Census of 1911, we find that William Ind and his family ae residing at , '3 New Street, in Selby, in Yorkshire.'' William Ind is now employed as a, ''cycle dealer.'' Here are some general details on PC William Ind. William Ind was born in Wootton Bassett, in Wiltshire, on the 14/6/1858. Joined the Metropolitan Police 14/4/1879 - PC - 'A' or Whitehall division. Warrant number 63496. Served also in 'H' or Whitechapel divn. 'L' or Lambeth divn. 'B' or Chelsea division. Transferred to the Commissioner's Office 14/1/1893 and remained there until he retired on pension in 1904. Question why would a Metropolitan Police Constable be employed to work in Selby, in Yorkshire and why would the Metropolitan Police pay for such an arrangement? What could be so important or secret or valuable that it warrants this deployment from the Metropolitan Police? What makes the War Dept. Office in Selby unique, as I have never heard of such an unusual arrangement being done before by the Metropolitan Police. This deployment also continued for years so what was so vital and important in the Selby area. Hopefully somebody can help with information or suggestions. Many thanks Alan.
  2. Hello everybody, I have just been given an article which I think competes the story for PC William Ind and his Special Duties in Selby. I would not know where to start in transferring this article onto this site so I shall just write out the article..... The Beverley Echo. [Tuesday, November 21, 1893.] Local News. The Powder Magazine at Selby, - The Royal Scots Lothian Regiment will not in future furnish the guard to the North-Eastern Military District Powder Magazine, near Selby. The duty will, it is said, now be undertaken by the Metropolitan Police. Obviously, this is an official statement but all the preparations would have already been taken to ensure a safe and orderly handover from the Military to the Metropolitan Police. PC William Ind started his attachment to Special Duties with the Commissioner's Office on the 14/1/1893. The preparation would have commenced many months before the official handover deadline. Therefore he was one of a very small handful of Policemen that now guarded the Magazine. There were other civilians that also worked in the compound because I read an article about an ex-army soldier that worked as a clerk at the Powder Magazine etc. Alan.
  3. Hi, I would suspect that the 'Ind family' from Wiltshire and Gloucestershire are connected somewhere but my initial searches did not find that connection. PC William Ind's father George Ind [1817-1884] had a sister 'Lucy Ann Ind,' who died on the 26/10/1861 in Avening, in Gloucestershire but that's the nearest I got. I could have easily missed something. Anyway that is the results so far. Alan.
  4. Many thanks Deelibod, I will definitely check it out and as you say the name 'Ind' is quite unusual. Your information is especially helpful because I come from the Scottish Borders so I would never have known the two area's are only about 40 miles apart. many thanks and I will post any relevant information I may find. Alan.
  5. Hi Nick, I am not really sure...….. Queen Victoria's full title would have been something like, ''Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and Empress of India.' 'Victoria Regina' must be the agreed summary of that...... for adding to smaller items such as medals and coins etc but I don't really know. Alan.
  6. This is Police Constable Ind's police medals :- Queen Victoria Metropolitan Police Jubilee medal from 1887 when he was a PC in 'B' or Chelsea [Westminster] division. The Queen Victoria Metropolitan Jubilee Clasp from 1897 when he was a PC Commissioner's Office but assigned to the War Dept. Office in Selby. Metropolitan Police Coronation medal of 1902 when he was PC Commissioner's Office but assigned to the War Dept. Office in Selby. I might have cropped the photo too much so that it fitted into the file size. Alan.
  7. Hopefully another picture of the powder magazine. Alan Hi again, Hopefully another picture of the powder magazine. Alan.
  8. Hello, I hope I have attached the photograph of the Powder Magazine properly so you can see what it was like. [Built in 1889]. Dave...without your information, I would have definitely gone on the wrong track and still trying to solve the mystery so many thanks. Alan
  9. Hello, I believe Dave was right and that there was a requirement for the Metropolitan Police to protect War Department establishments and as he said,' the Metropolitan Police provided the Policemen and the War Department would cover the costs of such arrangements.' I also now believe that on the 14th of January in 1893, when PC William Ind was assigned to the Commissioner's Office at Scotland Yard ...…..he was probably transferred straight away to the War Dept. Office in Selby. The Powder Magazine built in 1889 by the War Department was approximately 4 years old when PC William Ind arrived to take up his duties, guarding the magazine and compound. The site had three cottages on it for the Policemen who guarded the compound. I am not sure when these were built or if PC William Ind and his family actually resided in one of them. I do know that this site was guarded up until about 1970 when the whole site was sold to the local farmer. The Powder Magazine is still there to this day but it is a bit run down, to say the least. The farmer, I believe, is working with English Heritage to get the building listed and the site developed. There is a Sheila Newsome from the Selby History Group who has been invaluable in researching this and even supplied me with some photographs of the Powder Magazine at Barlby. I am not sure how to attach these, so I may post this entry now and try to attach a photograph later. regards, Alan.
  10. Hi, This is just to update things, I asked the Selby and District Family History Group if they have any information on this subject and they are going to get back to me after their next meeting. They did say that there was a munitions factory in Magazine Road, in Barlby which might have a connection but it is too early to tell. Alan. I have just found a reference to a ''Powder Magazine that was built by the War Department in 1889.'' which might be relevant to the story. This relates to Barlby which is next to Selby in Yorkshire.
  11. Hi Dave, The information is very useful and much appreciated. As you say the Metropolitan Police were responsible for the dockyards ie Portsmouth [1st divn./282 policemen], Devonport [2nd divn./291] and Chatham [3rd divn./221] etc but those were large establishments where the Police lived and worked and were mostly recuited from the local population, except for those that were transferred into the division. The figures for the establishments relate to 1902 records.. PC Willian Ind was one Police Constable going to the War Dept. Office in Selby which must have been more like a village than a town in 1901 to 1904. I just can't imagine that particular War Dept. Office being anything but small so maybe it was the importance of the projects or work being carried out that warranted the Metropolitan Police presence? I researched a PC Jesse Barlow, some time ago and he was with 'A' or Whitehall division through-out his whole pensionable career and also served, for a number of years, with the Windsor Castle Metropolitan Police security detail protecting Queen Victoria. PC Barlow would travel with the Royal Party to Osbourne House and Barmoral Castle during the season but would always return to the family home in Windsor at the end of the visit. PC William Ind, on the other hand, served year after year at Selby and although he was assigned to the Commissioner's Office, never appears to have returned to London. I just feel something is still missing in the Selby story. Once again Dave thanks you for your information, it made me think from different angles. Alan.
  12. Hello, This is just for information and to finish the story. I have not yet managed to locate this particular individuals Royal Navy service number but I did actually find a member of his family on Ancestry. The older members of the family knew that their brother had served on HMS London at the Yangtze in 1949. After he returned home, he spoke to one brother in particular, about what it had been like during the incident. I am still hopeful his service number may eventually be found from within the family. Alan. The End.
  13. Hello, I was wondering if anybody could give me some advice on how to research the following individual from the Royal Navy who served during War War II. The problem is I do not have his service number and so I do not know if it would even be possible to identity him. Hopefully I can get some advice. [a] George Desmond Jonathon Smith. D.O.B. 1928. Peterborough, Cambridgeshire, England. [c] Served in the Royal Navy from 1944 to 1949. [d] Served on HMS London in 1949, during the Yangtze Incident. [e] Released from the Navy and on the 1/11/1949 joined the Police. Without the service number, I have no idea on how to try and verify the information that I have been given. Any help would be much appreciated. I have only ever done one other entry on this excellent site so if I make any mistakes just let me know. regards, Alan. Hi, I forgot to say that I read somewhere that only 1450 Naval General Service medals with the bar ''Yangtzi 1949'' were issued to military personnel so you would think that there would be a readily available official list of those who received the award but I can't seem to find it. regards, Alan.
  14. Many thanks Egorka, every little bit counts. regards, Alan.
  15. There is another site which I have found that is quite interesting and deals with the Navy etc and that is the, ''maritimequest'' site. They certainly appear to have specific knowledge regarding the Yangtze Incident and so I have left a message regarding George Desmond Jonathon Smith. It might be a long shot but for me it is worth checking. regards, Alan.
  16. Hello, Thank you for the suggestions especially the, 'british medal forum,' which seems a particularly good idea. I have been hoping that a collector/researcher/historian that specialised in, 'HMS London,' or the 'Yangtze Incident,' might have relevant ship crew lists within their personal data which would have been easiest and quickest way to identify this possible crew member of HMS London. Since he remained in the same Police Constabulary from 1/11/1949, it might be possible to obtain his Navy serial number from his original Police admission paperwork. One of the main problems with this strategy is that there were several amalgamations of County and provincial police forces over the years which might complicate that line of research. Living in the Scottish Borders is extremely nice but unfortunately it means visiting the National Archives etc is extremely unlikely especially for only one query. I would suspect that no submission for information to the MOD would be accepted without his Navy serial number being attached. Therefore it may be the case that the story is known but it is not possible to factually confirm that story. regards, Alan. PS apologies for any mistakes but I not that great at typing.
  17. Hi, I was hoping somebody might be able to assist me with some information on Scotland Yard during the 1940's and 1950's period. I am researching an Inspector Charles James John Law who was promoted to Inspector in 1940 and transferred to the A3 department at Scotland Yard and he remain there until he retired in 1955. This might seem a bit daft but I cannot identify what department A3 refers to....... would that be the fingerprints or photography department or does it refer to the division or something else. Any help would be much appreciated and I hope I have done this entry properly, as it is now only my second posting on the forum. many thank. Alan.
  18. Thanks for the thumbs up......and your right, a simple thing like understanding and not guessing, what A3 meant, did help a great deal in finishing my research. The Gentleman's Military Interest Club is a very nice and helpful site....so many thanks. It always feel strange when a Metropolitan Policeman who served from the 1920's to 1950's is difficult to research but if you take a Metropolitan Policeman from Victorian times, then you can discover his whole life story ie work, family etc and even complete the research in just a few hours. Alan.
  19. Hi, This is just for general information but it seems there were 2 Inspector Law's serving at New Scotland Yard during this period ie 1940/50's. The other, ' Inspector Law,' was Detective Inspector Percy Law who was in charge of the Photographic Section, part of the CID, at New Scotland Yard. There was a Metropolitan Police recruitment advertisement in the papers in the 1950's which included a photograph of a plain clothes detective photographing a gun to highlight and record the fingerprints on the pistol. The same picture is on one of the, 'Boy's Annual books,' of that period and that picture is of Percy Law. Obviously, there would have been a great many people working in New Scotland Yard but who knows, they may have even known each other and I suppose there must have been quite a few famous characters/detectives that were around during this period ie Fabian etc. Alan.
  20. Hi Nick, Many thanks and it all makes sense now because when you think of it..... he was a station sergeant from 1937 to 1940 and station sergeants were responsible for the overall administration of the station. Station sergeants had 4 chevrons, instead of the 3 chevrons identifying a normal sergeant. Although, I cannot remember when the 4 chevrons were dispensed with as a rank marking. I should have also guessed that the letter 'A' may have been used to indicate administration. Anyway he spent 15 years in the administration the Metropolitan Police and there would have been hundreds of civilian staff involved in supporting these uniformed staff. I really do appreciate this information and now I know what he was actually doing at Scotland Yard. Alan.
  21. This is just an observation but it always seems funny how it can be so difficult to locate more recent information ie A3 department at Scotland Yard in the 1940's and 1950's and yet when you go back much further, say 130 or 160 years etc, then there can be a mass of information at your fingertips i.e.................... Inspector Charles James John Law's grandfather was :- Inspector John Law, Metropolitan Police. Born 14/8/1840, Devonshire. Joined the Metropolitan Police 21/4/1862. PC [H205/collar number] in 'H' or Whitechapel division. Retired on pension 4/10/1887, Inspector with 'B' or Chelsea [Westminster] division. John Law was over 5 feet and 9 inches tall. Dark hair, Hazel eyes. Fresh complexion. Scar on right wrist. 47 years old. [ in 1887]. Maybe this fact, encouraged his grandson, to also join the Metropolitan Police. Alan.
  22. Hi Mike, Many thanks for keeping me on the right track and thanks to the moderators for moving the post for me. Alan.
  23. Hi, I just thought I would add some more details on Inspector Charles J. J. Law, in case, it might help in identifying what is the A3 department in Scotland Yard in 1940 or assist in providing any other information on him. Charles James John Law, born Marylebone, in London, on the 25/6/1902. Served in the Army between 1921 to 1925. [don't know the actual military details] Joined the Metropolitan Police in 1925, assigned to 'J' or Bethnal Green division. Promoted to sergeant and transferred to 'C' or St James's division in 1931. Promoted to station sergeant and transferred to 'P' or Camberwell division in1937. Promoted to Inspector and transferred to A3 department at Scotland Yard in 1940. Retired in 1955, Inspector at Scotland Yard. [I think he was still an Inspector.] Died on 30/4/1993. My impression would be that A3 is likely to be a sub-group/section with the main department ie C.I.D. department and A3 could be fingerprint section etc but I just do not know. regards, Alan.
  24. Hi, I totally agree with you that during the height of the JTR murders, there would have probably been hundreds of suspects taken to the Police Stations each week. The majority of these would have been cleared and released quite quickly but you would think that there would be a mass of information relating to these incidents and the Police Officers involved but that is not the case. Ebay has its advantages but it also has many disadvantages, prices go from good to outrageous. Often there are better deals to be had by going directly to dealers shops and auctions etc. H or Whitechapel division medals relating to 1888 are extremely difficult to find but it can also be rewarding collecting from another famous period in H or Whitechapel division history. For example the ''Siege of Sidney Street in 1911.'' That whole period of the Tottingham Outrage and Sidney Street shows great courage by the officers that dealt with the incidents. There is greater scope in finding interesting items, as these are less well known incidents nowadays. Alan.
  25. Hello, This is my first posting on the club forum. I also watched the auction of PC W Saundery's medals and did some basic research on him. William Henry Saundery - dark hair, grey eyes, a fresh complexion, five feet ten and a half inches tall and had a slightly deformed left hand. PC H471 William Saundery was 1 of only 42 Police Constables that were permanently transferred to H or Whitechapel division during the infamous Jack the Ripper murders. That is 42 out of a total of 11,000-12,000 Police personnel. It should be remembered that the majority of the Police Officers serving with H division, during this specific period, have not been identified. All good stories should be evidenced and that is done by Police Order 31/10/1888. PC H471 William Saundery served with H division until the 7th of February in 1890 which was also an interesting period because you have various murder scares where it was feared JTR had returned. 8/2/1890 joined A Whitehall division. 26/8/1890 joined E or Holborn division. 27/12/1893 joined Y Highgate division. Retired from the Met. and Y division on the 4/3/1912 and all evidenced by his Met. Police pension records etc. Saundery is an unusual surname and there is also a good deal of information on his family life. PC H471 William Saundery's story and medals are extremely interesting and have the potential for researching in many ways. In many years of collecting I have never seen any of these particular Police Constables medals come onto the market and I suspect it will be many years again before we see a similar event. One last thought - this particular sale was accidentally done very badly, the listing title of the auction gave the wrong Police officers details and this error may have even resulted in many collectors missing the importance of these medals and also the start of the Summer holidays is never a good time to sell. The market value is what collectors and dealers are willing to pay and whenever you have a good story, then you are likely to be able to command a good price. Well that is my opinion and I thought I would share it with you all.