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Posts posted by bigjarofwasps

  1. Thanks for your replies to this thread guys. 

    I can't understand why there isn't a set system for police medals & ribbons country wide. That would certainly make life easier? 


    Also has the SPD situation only just come to light?  What were they using as medal ribbons before someone drempt up this crazy idea? 

  2. 11 hours ago, IrishGunner said:

    Wasps, what is the source of your image?  Curious that those those service ribbons do not appear on the LAPD's own site.

    Irish, based it purely on this source....................


    11 hours ago, IrishGunner said:

    Wasps, what is the source of your image?  Curious that those those service ribbons do not appear on the LAPD's own site.

    Irish, based it purely on this source....................






  3. Related image

    Couple of questions here, if anyone can answer them?

    Why is this officer wearing her ribbons on the wrong side?

    Have a read of this...........


    What are the ribbons she's wearing and what should they in fact be? 








    5. Army Long Service Medal

    6. World War II Army of Occupational Medal

  4. Ladies/Gents,

    Would be grateful if anyone could help me identity the ribbons that this officer is wearing.

    I'm no expert but it appears he's been a cop since at least 1992 and has some military service in there to, am curious to know why he doesn't have the police service ribbon or detective service ribbon despite this? Any suggestions? 




    1. Navy Achievement Medal

    2. Combat Action Ribbon

    3. Presidential Unit Citation



    6. Long Service Ribbon? 


    8. National Defense Ribbon

    9. Iraq Campaign Medal

    10. War on Terror Medal





    15. Police Star

    16. Police Commission Unit Citation

    17. Police Meritorious Unit Citation

    18. Civil Disturbance 1992

    19. Earthquake 1994

    20. Democratic National Convention


  5. Stamped in crude lettering across the head of the king is the phrase ‘VOTES FOR WOMEN’, the slogan of the suffragette movement. The deliberate targeting of the king, as the constitutional monarch and head of the Church of England, could be likened to iconoclasm, a direct assault on the male authority figures that were perceived to be upholding the laws of the country. As Neil MacGregor wrote in A History of the World in 100 Objects, ‘this coin stands for all those who fought for the right to vote’.

    The British Museum’s example was minted in 1903 but most likely circulated unaltered for ten years before it was defaced, shortly before the outbreak of the First World War in around 1913–1914. We know this from the date of other coins bearing the same slogan in identical lettering. It was said at the time, that the suffragettes had copied the practice from anarchists, who were defacing similar coins with the phrase ‘Vive l’Anarchie’. Precisely just how many coins were defaced is unknown: several other examples are known to exist besides the Museum’s ‘Votes for Women’ coin, but the effort required to deface a single coin means it is unlikely that many were made. It was probably carried out by a single person using just one set of individual alphabet stamps, a process that would have been repetitive and time-consuming. The perpetrator has never been traced, and no direct connection has ever been established between the coins and the Women’s Social and Political Union (WSPU) or other suffragette organisations.

    The First World War is commonly perceived as a watershed moment, when the sun finally set on the Victorian golden age: ‘never such innocence, never before or since’, to use the oft-quoted words of Larkin. Yet this is a romanticised and superficial view of pre-war Britain that conceals a more disturbing image, of a country beset by domestic crises and civil disorder. These included anarchist violence and the beginnings of the Troubles in Ireland, and chief among them was the campaign for women’s suffrage. Suffragette militarism, or ‘direct action’, as it was also known, was characterised by bombings, arson, window smashing and the destruction of cultural property. It reached a tragic climax when Emily Wilding Davison ran out in front of the king’s horse at the Epsom Derby, in June 1914. The simple act of defacing a coin can appear trivial in comparison with these more serious acts of sedition, but it nevertheless conveyed the same symbolic message of protest against a government that refused to extend women the vote.





  6. Arthur Charles Frost 

    Arthur Charles Frost born 17th February 1867 in the parish of Brooke Norwich Norfolk.

    1888 Marries his wife Ellen in Reigate.

    1890 joins Metropolitan Police (06.01.1890) warrant number 75058 posted to J Division. Living at Moyna Road Upper Tooting. Trade gardener for a Capt Parr The Cedars Upper Tooting. 

    1891 Living in Bonner Street Bethnal Green.

    1897 awarded Diamond Jubilee Medal J Division.

    1898 Gives evidence at the Old Bailey (12th December), for a coining offence that occurred on the 17th November on Hackney Road, as Constable 252J.


    1899 Gives evidence at the Old Bailey 24th July, for a wounding offence that occurred on the 26th June on Whitechapel Road concerning the use of a revolver as Constable 252J.


    1901 Living 53 Russia Lane Bethnal Green.

    1902 award Coronation Medal J Division.

    1902 Gives evidence at the Old Bailey 5th May, for a wounding offence that occurred on the 24th March on Paradise Street, Bethnal Green as Constable 24JR.


    1911 award Coronation Medal J Division?

    1911 Living 29 Bandon Lane Bethnal Green.

    1913 Gives evidence at the Old Bailey on the 4th March, for a theft offence that occurred on the 28th January Marylebone as a Detective in D Division.


    1918 retires from police D Division as a Detective 18.03.1918.

    1918 dies Paddington.

    Arthur FROST portrait.jpg

    Arthur Frost medals forum.jpg

  7. Alfred Ernest SCHOLES 
    Born in Derbyshire on the 31st December 1864.
    Joined Metropolitan Police on the 27th February 1888 - Warrant number 73418
    Having completed his training and being posted to D Division, he lodged in a property within Allsopp Mews, in the Marylebone district of London. With two other Constables. 
    At some point possibly as early as the 8th September 1888, following the Anne CHAPMAN murder, SCHOLES was seconded to H Division, to assist in the hunt for Jack the Ripper. He certainly appears to have been on duty in H Division on the night of the 29th/30th September 1888 for the double event murders and states in his memoirs that " he was patroling his beat on Tabbard Street East on the furthest end of his beat on Mile End Road, it was a memorable night there had been a Lord Mayors show, whilst I was on duty Jack the Ripper committed two of his murders in the very street that I was."
    6th January 1896 PC225D posted to D Division CID.
    3rd August 1898 promoted to Sgt 3rd class D Division.
    23rd June 1903 promoted to Sgt 2nd class D Division. 
    21st January 1908 promoted to Sgt 1st class Y Division.
    27th June 1910 promoted to Detective Insp Y Division. 
    In 1911 Alfred and his then family of wife and three children were resident at 17, Mark Road, Noel Park, London.
    Pensioned 14th  July 1913 as Detective Inspector Y Division and joins the Port Authority 
    Police at the same rank.
    Finally retires in 1924
    In 1939 he and his wife lived at 55, Whitehall Road, in the Grays area of London. Alfred was then working as a Private Enquiries Agent.  
    It is believed that he died in the Battersea area of London in 1946. 
    Entitled to 1897 Jubilee Medal as PC D Division, 1902 as PS D Division.

    PC Scholes was just six months into his career with Scotland Yard when he, along with hundreds of other officers, were drafted into the dangerous and dark slums of Whitechapel to hunt for the killer that had been dubbed ‘Jack the Ripper.’ In his memoirs he recalls numerous occasions that he stopped and questioned innocent pedestrians, and led to comparative safety the many ‘fallen’ women who ran into his arms convinced that they had met ‘Jack’ and were next to be slaughtered. It is hard today to imagine the Whitechapel of 1888, with its narrow, unlighted streets, dirty alleys and slum buildings that housed some of London’s most unfortunate and desperate people. It was also a world of multiple races and nationalities all squeezed into a small, heavily populated district. It is also hard to imagine the terror that gripped the people of this poor part of London, and the terror and fear that swept the country as a whole. People genuinely feared for their lives and at the height of the scare, around September and October 1888, the streets of Whitechapel became deserted. 

    Old Bailey pages
    Famous cases from the book 

    Housebreaking - 8th February 1897 as a Detective in G Division
    https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18970208-213&div=t18970208-213&terms=Alfred Scholes#highlight
    Robbery - 25th February 1901 as a Sergeant in D Division
    https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t19010225-213&div=t19010225-213&terms=Alfred Scholes#highlight
    Robbery - 25th March 1901 as a Sergeant in D Division
    https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t19020310-260&div=t19020310-260&terms=Alfred Scholes#highlight
    Libel - 10th March 1902 as a Sergeant in D Divison
    https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t19020310-260&div=t19020310-260&terms=Alfred Scholes#highlight
    Forgery 3rd April 1905 as a Sergeant 
    https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t19050403-301&div=t19050403-301&terms=Alfred Scholes#highlight
    Theft 11th September 1906 as a Sgt in D Division
    https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t19060911-99&div=t19060911-99&terms=Alfred Scholes#highlight
    Fraud 21st October 1910 as a Sgt G Division
    https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t19100208-35&div=t19100208-35&terms=Alfred Scholes#highlight
    Forgery 31st May 1910 as a Sgt
    https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t19100531-21&div=t19100531-21&terms=Alfred Scholes#highlight
    Murder 28th March 1911 as an Insp
    https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t19110328-46&div=t19110328-46&terms=Alfred Sholes#highlight
    Theft 7th November 1911 as an Insp
    https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t19111107-48&div=t19111107-48&terms=Alfred Scholes#highlight
    Theft 30th January 1912 as an Insp Y Division
    https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t19120130-33&div=t19120130-33&terms=Alfred Scholes#highlight
    Fraud 4th February 1913 as an Insp
    https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t19130204-32&div=t19130204-32&terms=Albert Scholes#highlight
    Theft 4th March 1913 as an Insp
    https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t19130304-65&div=t19130304-65&terms=Alfred Scholes#highlight



    Scholes portrait.jpg

    Scholes 1897 Jubilee Medal.jpg

    Forum 2.jpg

  8. 1851 Great Exhibition in the Crystal Palace Medal, to Police Constable Thomas Spiller. 

    Thomas Spiller - 1851 census St Luke's 1861 census Clerkenwell both on G Division. His collar number in 1851 was 428G. Spiller's warrant number was 25269. He died on the 14th January 1864 with the rank of Inspector G Division.


    Thomas Spiller.jpg

    1851 Great Exhibition in the Crystal Palace Medal to Police Constable John Shepperd.

    John Sheppard (note spelling of surname) 1851 census Bermondsey. M Division. 

    Collar number 768M 

    John Shepperd.jpg

  9. Can only find one PC W Clark V Division entitled to 1902 (V) and 1911 medals.


    87739 Walter CLARK joined 26.08.01 V Division Retired 30.08.1926 W Division. 

    So this will confirm his 1902 medal and entitlement to a 1911, HOWEVER, there are several W CLARKE's entitled to the 1911 so due to the presence of the 'E' on the 1911 it is possible that someone has just come across two medals with the "same" name and put them together.

    But having said that and given the fact that they appear to have been mounted together for sometime, I would hazard that they are in fact to the same chap and his name has just been misspelled on the 1911 medal.................



  10. A bit more information has come to light. Unfortunately there is no John RATCLIFFE in the 89th but it appears there's on in the 4th. Too much of a long shot, perhaps? 

    BUT, there is a James Phipps on the roll for the 89th, Regt.no. 1930, entitled to the Crimea medal with Sebastapol clasp. Could this be the same man? 

    Do service papers for the army that far back still exist? 

  11. 1 hour ago, coldstream said:

    Similar details to those you have already written about are contained within this link along with a few illustrations.


    Bob Bartlett does a good job with the Surrey Constabulary History on this site


    Regards Simon


    .............and there was me thinking Epsom was an idyllic sleepy little place!!!!!!!! When's the next train back to Whitechapel?  ;)

  12. 1 hour ago, Brett Hendey said:

    The SAC was raised during the Boer War, and, in spite of their name, they functioned as mounted infantry, hence the use of 'Trooper' for the lowest rank.  Even in peacetime in South Africa, there was a need for mounted police, and many of the SAC men deployed in the Orange Free State and Transvaal were mounted.  The same applied to the police  in the Cape Colony and Natal, and the tradition of using 'Trooper' continued.  In the case of Natal, 'Constable' referred to policemen employed in court duties, and their rank was equivalent to that of Sergeant in other branches of the force.


    Very interesting!!! One wonders why they chose to incorporate the word Constabulary at all? All very misleading:wacky:. That Baden Powell had a lot to answer for ;).

  13. 1 hour ago, coldstream said:

    Thanks for this, a well researched and informative story, Epsom was taken over by Surrey Police when the Boundary Changes occurred and was the neighbouring Division to the one in which I worked. It has always had a lively reputation and always surprised me that the Custody area was so small especially bearing in mind the crowds the Derby brings to the Town. It is also famous for the Riot by Canadian Soldiers resulting in the death of Station Sergeant Green.



    Glad you found it of interest, especially as a former bobby from the patch.

    I have tried to research the four police officers named in the newspaper reports, although I was able to find PC 269V Joseph Russell  on the 1841 census other than that I have been unable to find any service details about them, as they served too far back in the mists of time. 

    I was however able to find this out about Epsom which might also be of interest.

    With the extension of the Metropolitan Police district in 1839, Epsom formed part of V or Wandsworth Division. A police document in the Office for National Statistics shows in V Division, there were six PCs living in a private house in Epsom. A Mounted Sergeant supervised Morden, North Cheam, Malden, Ewell and Epsom. 


    Another possible line of research is with the two miscreants James Phipps and John Ratcliffe  from the 89th, which I am currently looking into.




    With regards to the 1919 riot the Canadians were involved in a similar incident in Kinmel Camp North Wales. 





  14. I happened upon this old photograph recently and thought it might be of interest. The handwriting on the back names the chap as Arthur O'Brien Jones, Divisional Surgeon, Epsom. Police surgeons aren't my normal collecting sphere, but I thought I'd take a chance and see what I could find out about him. It appears that members of the Epsom Historical Society were aware of him and had already conducted considerable research on him. His story is a somewhat sad if not interesting one. Which I thought might be of interest to fellow forum users.....

    Arthur O'Brien Jones was born in Stamford, Lincolnshire in 1813 and qualified as a doctor in 1836; he was the only son of the Reverend Thomas Arthur Jones and Elizabeth O'Brien. Having qualified as a doctor he appears to have gone to live in Epsom. He was certainly there in 1841 and acting as Divisional Surgeon to V Division, when he had treated PC 269V Joseph Russell.............

    On Saturday 8 May 1841, just before midnight, PC 269V Joseph Russell was on patrol in the High Street when he heard a disturbance at the King's Head inn. On investigation, Charles Fincher was found kicking at the tap-room door. On being told that he could get no more beer, Fincher, a labourer, became abusive, tore the officer's rolled cape from the back of his coat and used it to hit PC Russell in the face. A violent struggle ensued and a number of people emerged from the tap-room to become involved in the fracas.
    A drunken George Gardom intervened, shouting: - "You shall not take that man to the station. I'm a gentleman and I'll bail him... You you and you. Come on ten of you and assist me to get this man away." A number of men then assaulted the constable with sticks and their fists.

    PC Russell drew his truncheon to defend himself and kept hold of Fincher until a colleague, PC Price arrived to assist him.

    When giving evidence to the Magistrates, Baron de Teissier and Mr Goss, about the event PC Russell declared that George Edes, James Phipps and John Ratcliffe (the latter two, recruits to 89th Regiment of Foot) had subsequently belaboured him with heavy sticks. "I was knocked down. Ede knelt upon my back, struck me and attempted to kick me in the ribs but kicked my lanthorn. I got up and struck him with my staff very violently, as I thought he intended to do me some serious hurt."

    The original police station was situated in the High Street at the eastern end on the south side. As explained in 'The Court House' "From an article in one of the local papers in 1935, it appears that when number 45 High Street, now the ASK restaurant, was being vacated the remains of what appeared to be two cells were discovered. Although the some alterations had been made to the doors, the door bolts were still attached. Each door contained small trap about 6"x8" presumably to allow food to be given to the prisoner." At the time of the 1851 Census these premises were occupied by a Sergeant, his family, 6 constables and a lodger.

    The two Police constables escorted their prisoner towards the section-house but only got as far as the (Spread) Eagle tap before Gardom again incited the mob.

    George Gardom seized Phipps' stick, struck constable Russell down, and beat him about the head. The officer's leather top hat, then part of police uniform rather than a helmet, was 'cut to pieces'.
    Eventually the constables managed to struggle back into the station-house with their prisoner and closed some gates behind them. A hail of stones were hurled after the group and the mob burst open the gates threatening to storm the building. Alerted by all the noise, other officers rushed out to assist their colleagues, beat off the attack and apprehend, additionally, Gardom, Edes, Phipps and Ratcliffe.

    Although powerfully built, PC Russell had been badly injured and remained dangerously ill when examined by the surgeon-in-chief to the Metropolitan Police and Arthur O'Brien Jones, surgeon to V Division, some days later.

    The charges brought were:
    Edes - Assaulting and wounding Joseph Russell, PC 269 V, with intent to do him grievous bodily harm;
    Phipps and Ratcliffe - Attempting to rescue a prisoner;
    Gardom - Assaulting and resisting the police in the execution of their duty;
    Fincher - Being drunk and disorderly and assaulting the police.

    Initially, Gardom and Edes had been bailed for £100 and two sureties of £50 each. At a further hearing, however, the Magistrates remanded all the accused to Kingston gaol to await trial. Gardom's father appealed to the bench, explaining that George was his only son and being sent to prison would break his parents' hearts. His offer to stand bail to the extent of many thousands of pounds for security to ensure his son's appearance was declined.

    The outcome of trial at Guildford assize is revealed by the Criminal Registers published on the Ancestry UK website. George Gardom, George Edes, James Phipps and John Ratcliffe were all tried at the Assizes on 29 June 1841. Gardom got 12 months' imprisonment and the others 9 months each. Charles Fincher was not mentioned.


    1841 Epsom appears to have been a rowdy place as a similar incident occurred shortly afterwards.....

    The Morning Post on Wednesday 25 August 1841. The previous Saturday, 21 August 1841, at ten minutes to midnight, five men left the Bull's Head*, Ewell, "drunk and noisy", before travelling to Epsom. In the town centre, they were encountered by Police Constables 219V Butcher and 217V Duncan Stewart who remonstrated with them. Charles Robinson from Putney flourished a reaping hook [indicating that the men could have been itinerant harvesters] over PC Butcher swearing he would cut off the officer's head. Disarmed by Butcher, Robinson was given into the custody of PC Stewart. George Morrett, of Brentford, then struck Constable Butcher over the head with a heavy stick before kicking him and breaking one of the officer's ribs. A man called Jarrett went to the assistance of the felled constable and both assailants were escorted towards the police-station. On their way to the station house PC Butcher collapsed in the street resulting in him being carried home. Examined by the divisional surgeon, Mr Jones, his injuries were declared to be of a most serious character. On Monday, 23 August 1841, the men appeared before local magistrates, Baron de Tessier & Captain Gough [Henry Gosse, Lord of the Manor of Chessington?]: after a surgeon's certificate had been produced testifying that PC Butcher remained in imminent danger the prisoners were remanded until Friday 3 September 1841. Details of their trial have not been traced.

    In the 1851 census Arthur was already practising and living in South Street, Epsom with two of his sisters, Jemima and Anne, and three of Ellen's children were also in residence (it seems that Ellen's husband, coal merchant Arthur Burton, had gone to Paris in 1848 to escape his creditors and he set up in business there). Jemima married Australia merchant Joseph Matthew Holworthy in 1852 and Anne never married, eventually returning to Bromley College. 

    Arthur O'Brien Jones marries Sibella Vernon/Farish at Epsom on 22 August 1857 and they live at The Shrubbery in South Street.  They have just one child, Arthur Vernon Jones, born in Epsom on 16 June 1859, who was educated at Eton. Sadly, the boy died of consumption at the age of 19, on 8 September 1878, at the mountain resort of Davos Platz, Grisons in Switzerland.

    Dr O'Brien Jones was again in the papers in 1877 following a civil case that was brought against him and the head master of a local school following the death of a child, whom the Doctor had treated. It subsequently transpired that there was no case to answer by either party. But one can only imagine the local scandal. 


    Finally on the 1st May 1889 Dr Obrien Jones commits suicide by consuming hydrogen cyanide.............

    Wednesday, 1 May 1889, having committed suicide. A piece of paper was found, on which he had written 'Taken prussic acid'. The inquest was held at Epsom on 10 May 1889 and reported in The Surrey Mirror next day. Sibella's evidence was taken at her house; she had returned home at about 5pm on 1 May and found Arthur in a chair, evidently dying. 'He tried to open his eyes, but he could not speak. I left home at eleven in the morning, and I then noticed nothing particular in him. He had been very cheerful and happy lately. Nothing had happened to disturb him in any way. His age had incapacitated him from doing so much work and this might have preyed upon his mind.'


    Dr George Robinson Barnes, said, 'I was formerly in partnership with the deceased, but during the last six years we had only a working agreement. I last saw him alive on Monday afternoon about two o'clock. He was in a good state of health and did not appear depressed. On Wednesday I was sent for to see him, and on my arrival found he was dead. The prussic acid bottle was by his side and a glass measure was standing on the table. I detected a strong smell of acid. The cause of death was poisoning from prussic acid. I know nothing which would cause the deceased to commit suicide. I was not aware of any financial difficulties. His practice had declined. He had outlived his old patients and a new generation had come into Epsom. I think this feeling of not being able to do much worried him considerably. He had not, through his declining years, been equal to his work, particularly his night practice'


    Newspapers recorded, 7 May 1889,

    "A Supposed Suicide. A painful sensation has been caused at Epsom by the death of Mr Arthur O'Brien Jones, surgeon to the Metropolitan Police, Epsom Division. He was found on Wednesday night lying dead in his room with a phial of prussic acid by his side and also, it is said, a statement written by himself. Mr Jones had spent over 50 years in Epsom, being about 76 years of age. He was surgeon for several public institutions and though of somewhat eccentric character was much esteemed. No reason has been forthcoming to explain this event."



    Arthur Obrien Jones 002.jpg

    Arthur Obrien Jones 001.jpg

    Arthur Obrien Jones 003.jpg

    Arthur Obrien Jones 006.jpg

    Arthur Obrien Jones 005.jpg

    Sources -