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Everything posted by bigjarofwasps

  1. Hi, Can anyone tell me when Supt Olive was at X Div? Judging by his photo, I think it must have been early last century, can anyone shine any light on this for me. Also included in the photo are various Chief Insps and Insps.... Sygrove Collison Whittle Ball Dingle Douglas Baxter Reid Taylor Macer Ricketts Perry Instance Dauncey Sellors Cosgrove Morgan Barrett Parker Lvie Richards. All have at least two medals each. They are all wearing peaked caps, two of them are in civvies, which look late Victorian to Pre-WW1 style. If anyone has any thoughts I`d very much like to hear from you. Gordon.
  2. Despite what you might see on Facebook or up for auction on Ebay. Pound coins dated 2016 are NOT rare or worth thousands!!!!!!! Simply the Royal Mint started producing them last year ready for release, hence the 2016 date. I further fear that all this hype about flawed examples, will prove to be nothing exciting in the coin collecting world either. By all means sit on any examples you may have, as who knows, but don't rush out and spending your hard earned cash to buy everyone you find on Ebay, under the delusion that they'll be an investment.
  4. Cracked, warped and missing middles: thousands of new £1 coins 'have major production flaws'
  5. I've heard talk of a new GSM `08, which is supposed to run along side the OSM. It appears bars for the new GSM have already been authorised and yet I can find no information or pictures about this new medal on the internet (other than a New Zealand one). Has anyone else heard of this or is my information incorrect?
  6. Ladies/Gents, Has anyone got an interest in this unit? Can you tell me what if, any tanks the unit used? Where these tanks part of this division, or did they just support tanks from another division?
  7. Who are these then? I assume something different again and not to be confused with the 4th Polizei Division?
  8. Comes into circulation today.....................
  9. Found this book as well (again very expensive), but would appear to hold the key.....................
  10. To any experts on the subject who my be viewing my thread and pulling their hair out, please forgive my ignorance, but I believe that there was something also again called the Polizei Panzer Company and not to be confused with the 4th. They appear to have been along the same lines of the 4th i.e formed from en from Ordnungspolizei. They do appear to have been involved in combat as well as normal policing duties, but they also appear to have had heavier tanks, than their SS counterparts? No Tigers or Panthers granted (that I can find), but certainly captured Russian armour.
  11. Found these, which I assume to be early war uniform examples?
  12. Thanks again Spasm, such an interesting subject, what a shame there is virtually no books about them!!
  13. Looking a little more closely at it, I'm not sure just how authentic it is? Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the anti-partisan badge was never issued to anyone, other than the one Himmler awarded to himself for some reason. That being said what badges would the 4th have qualified for? Would they have qualified for the Kuban shoulder shield?
  14. Thanks Steve. No, just something I stumbled across whilst surfing the internet for more information on this unit.
  15. Thanks Steve!! Re number 1, sorry I meant the metal breast badge as apposed to the medal ribbon.
  16. Can anyone identify the numbered badges for me? I suspect that the Polizei Division (per say), ceased to exist in it's original form (i.e made up of Ordnungspolizei ), in August 1941, where the division saw action near Luga. During heavy fighting for the Luga bridgehead the division lost over 2,000 soldiers including the commander, Arthur Mülverstadt. Has anyone got any information on the Division involvement in this battle?
  17. Panzerspähwagen of the Polizei Division.
  18. Thanks again Spasm, Found this...... SS leader Heinrich Himmler had in 1936 the power of the German police and in October 1939 he transferred 15,000 from Ordnungspolizei to form a military division. The new police division was used in the fall and winter of 1939 for occupation duties in the newly conquered Poland . In February 1940 intensified military training, but compared to the other military SS troops at this time was the police division is not of the same caliber. Its soldiers were older, less trained and less ideologically inspired. In addition, the division is equipped with older and captured weapons. Would be interesting to know how many of the original Ordnungspolizei survived with the division during the entire war? I assume that casualty replacements would have been obtained from the general manpower reserves of Germany as apposed to a continual pool of Ordnungspolizei? Especially when you consider their loses on 27th June 1941(The division lost 2 000 men in the bloody frontal assault).
  19. Thanks Steve, that's very interesting!!!! With regards to... SS Polizei Panzer Battalion 4 (formed from SS Polizei Assault Gun Battalion 4 in July 1944) SS Polizei Armoured Recon Battalion 4 I assume the Panzer Battalion would have had STUG's and the like and the Recon would have had the Panzer IV and that sort of thing. Am I right in thinking that they wouldn't have had Tiger's and Panther's?
  20. There seems to be very little reading material on this division and that, that is available, costs a fortune, certainly more than I'd ever consider paying for a book!!!!
  21. The only pictures I can find are from the Russian front and feature captured Soviet armour (BT7 & T26C. I'm aware that at the start of the war they were issued with captured Czech equipment, don't know whether this included armour. Did they have any armour of their own (German)?
  22. This one is the best yet...................... Disposing of some items from my Jack the Ripper collection over the coming weeks. First up is this scarce medal. Approximately 14000 Jubilee medals were issued to the Metropolitan Police with almost all being named to the officer. However, approximately 120 medals were kept as replacements. Some of these went to civilians working for the police which left a relatively small number as unnamed reserve stock, hence the rarity. Once applied for, these replacements were subsequently named to the officer and issued. The example offered is one of these very small number of unnamed medals however, as can be seen from the pictures, this has been fitted with a mounting brooch and has obviously been proudly worn by the officer which makes this a scarce and unusual medal indeed. Comes with other medal ribbons (IGS 1895-1902, QSA 1899-1902, KSA 1901-1902) which suggests the officer saw military service after his police service. Medal found with a period 1888 dated newspaper reporting the Whitechapel murders which may suggest he had some involvement in the Jack the Ripper case as did many police in London, and therefore possibly connected to either "J" Division or "H" Division? The officer left police service before 1897 as there is no 1897 bar to the medal and this could tie in with his military service (at least 1895-1902).
  23. Ladies/Gents, Stumbled across this cracking little portrait, whilst surfing the net. Is it possible to put a name to the face, given we have his collar number and medal entitlement?
  24. George LODGE Born 1846 Shaftesbury, Dorset, England Joined Met on the 12th August 1867, Warrant Number 48780. 1st March 1869 gave evidence at the Old Bailey - FREDERICK TOOMEY & CHARLES CHRISTOPHER, Theft burglary. FREDERICK TOOMEY (20), and CHARLES CHRISTOPHER (26) , Burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of Mark Girschen, and stealing thirty-three pieces of cloth, his property. MR. MOODY. conducted the Prosecution; and MR. ROWLAND. defended Toomey, and MR. GRIFFITHS. defended Christopher. MARK GIRSCHEN . I live at No. 10, Artillery Passage, Bishopsgate Street, and am a tailor—about 2 o'clock on 17th February, I was called up, and missed several pieces of unfinished work, cut trowsers, and pieces of cloth—the value of the things stolen was about 5l.—I have some of them here—I shut up about 11 o'clock the night before—when I woke up, the first floor window was right open—the window was taken out, the ropes had been cut through—it was safe when I went to bed. STEPHEN BIRD . I live at No. 8, Artillery Passage—on the morning of 17th February, between 2 and 3 o'clock, I heard some kind of cracking noise, as if someone was trying to break a window sash—I got up and looked out—I saw a man standing on the lead work over the shop front of Mr. Girschen's—he succeeded in getting the window open—I then went in and came back with a bundle, which he threw out of the window—I gave the alarm—the man jumped down and ran away—I called, "Police!" and a constable came up in about ten minutes—I can't say who the man was. HENRY MILLER . (Policeman H 120). On this morning, I was on duty in Dorset Street—I heard a cry of "Stop thief!"—I saw Toomey coming from the direction of Artillery Passage, walking along with his hands in his pockets—it was about thirty yards from Artillery Passage I made a catch to get hold of him—he said, "I am d—if you shall catch me"—he ran down Dorset Street—I ran after him, but I was thrown down by a female, and lost sight of him—I went back to Artillery Passage, and as I turned out of Union Street I saw Christopher coming down—he was running, and constable 98 after him—he was caught about 100 yards from Artillery Passage. Cross-examined by MR. GRIFFITHS, Q. Was he taken in Union Street? A. No, Commercial Street—I said I came down Union Street—he fell down—he was not knocked down—I went up to him before he got up—he said, "I did not do anything, I have done nothing, what do you want with me?"—after he got up he said, "Let me stop for my cap"—he had no cap on—I did not let him stop. Cross-examined by MR. ROWLAND. Q. You know where Toomey lives? A. Yes, in the neighbourhood. JOHN WICKS . (Policeman H 201). I heard cries of "Police!" and saw Toomey running, in Dorset Street, from Artillery Passage—I ran after him to Spitalfields Market—there he fell down, and I fell on him—I asked him why he was running, and he never said anything, he was too much exhausted—he was very violent—I took him to the station, and charged him with breaking into this house—he did not say anything—he was running as fast as he could—I chased him about 150 yards before I caught him, I should think. JOHN CRUDGE . (Policeman H 90). I heard cries, and saw two men running, in Dorset Street—I followed, with the other constable, and caught Toomey—he kicked and struggled very violently—we were too exhausted to say anything. GEORGE LODGE . (Policeman H 98). I heard cries of "Stop thief!" and saw two men rush out of Artillery Passage—one ran towards Dorset Street, and the other towards me—I followed the one that came towards me up Artillery Street, Union Street, into Commercial Street, and there he fell, and I took him into custody—it was Christopher—he said he had done nothing, and I told him I did not believe it—I took him back to Artillery Passage, and when I got there I found the clothes lying on the ground—there were nine pairs of trowsers, two coats, a vest, and there was some cloth on the ledge under the window—I took Christopher to the station—Toomey was there when we got there—they both said they knew nothing of it—I did not lose sight of the man that I followed from the time he came out of Artillery Passage till I stopped him. Cross-examined by MR. GRIFFITHS. Q. How far were you from Artillery Passage? A. About twenty yards, when he came out—there were no other persons about there—I mean to say that I can't say whether he fell, or was knocked down—I was close to him—he might have been tripped up by some passers by—he had no cap on—I won't swear that he did or did not ask me to let him get his cap—I did not have a struggle with the other constable as to who should take him to the station—I found his cap under the clothes in Artillery Passage—he said, "I have done nothing; what do you want with me?"—he may have said, "Let me stop for my cap;" I did not hear him—there were two or three constables there—I said to him, "Come on, and we will see"—he said, "All right, I have done nothing"—I was examined before the Magistrate on two occasions—I did not say anything about his having no cap the first time; I omitted it, and I told the inspector directly I came out, and that was the reason I was examined the second time. MR. MOODY. Q. Had Christopher a cap on when he came out of the passage? A. No; when I went back I found it under the clothes—he said it was not his—he has worn it since—this is it (produced). JOHN HOSKINSON . (Police Inspector H). Toomey was brought to the station nearly exhausted—I asked what was the matter, and it was some few minutes before I could get an answer from the constables—Toomey became very violent, and we were obliged to put him in the cell till I could make inquiries—when he was told the charge he said, "The b—were after me, springing the rattles"—Christopher said nothing—I went to the house, and found that the entrance had been made by the first floor window—the bottom sash had been forced out—one man could not have done it alone. NOT GUILTY . 1871 Bethnal Green - 82-86 something unreadable Road, Police Station, H division 10th February 1879 gave evidence at the Old Bailey - ALFRED TRACEY, Theft simple larceny, offences occurred on M Division. Stealing five pieces of cloth, one firkin, and 84lb. of butter, of the London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway Company. MESSRS. OPPENHEIM and MOSELEY Prosecuted; MR. RAVEN Defended. JAMES RICHARD BATE . I am in the employ of Messrs. Cook and Sons, of St. Paul's Churchyard—this cloth (produced) belongs to them—I know it quite well—on 2nd November I received a traveller's order for six pieces for Lelliot, of Brighton—I selected them, and executed the order the same day—I did not pack them. HENRY PATTESON . I am in the packing department of Cook and Sons—on 2nd November I delivered a canvas truss containing cloth to a carman named Smith belonging to the North Western Railway Company for Lelliot, of Brighton—I entered it at the time in this book, which Smith signed in my presence. JOHN TREDENNICK . I am in the employ of Cook and Sons—this piece of black cloth belongs to them—this ticket was on it on 2nd November in their warehouse at the time the cloth was selected. JOSEPH SMITH . I am a carman in the employ of the London and North-Western Railway Company—on 2nd November last I received from Cook and Son's 14 packages, amongst them a truss of cloth for Lelliot, of Brighton, and signed this book for it—I took the goods to the head office at the Swan with Two Necks in Gresham Street, and they were checked off there—I delivered them as I received them, including the truss. THOMAS ROGERS . I am employed at the Swan booking-office in Gresham Street—I was there on Saturday, 2nd November—I saw a package brought in, and delivered it to Stageman's van belonging to the Brighton Railway. HENRY WOODLEY . I am a checker in the employ of the Brighton Railway Company at Willow Walk station—I was there on November 2nd—I remember some goods being brought there by Stageman—I checked them with the delivery note—I did not find a truss for Lelliot, of Brighton—there ought to have been—I made a note of it on the delivery note. WILLIAM WOOD . I am in the employ of Emma Lelliot, a draper, of Trafalgar Street, Brighton—at the latter end of October last I gave an order for some cloth to Messrs. Cook's traveller from a sample which he showed me—it was similar to the cloth produced—it did not arrive—I expected it 4 or 5 days after I had ordered it. See original Click to see original CHARLES CHAPMAN . I am butterman to the London Brighton and South Coast Railway Company—it is my business to attend to the butter at the Willow Walk Station—on November 4 there were 60 tubs and 72 crocks of butter to go to Dixon, Carter, and Co., of Whitechapel—the tubs were marked K C B; this tub (produced) is so marked—Stageman's van was at the Willow Walk Station that morning, and I loaded it with the 60 tube and the crocks of butter—at that time there were 40 firkins of butter at the station; they were not for Dixon and Co.—I did not put any firkin on the van—Stageman left with the van—after he had gone I missed a firkin—this (produced) is one of the firkins. JOHN CRONIN . I am a van boy in the service of the London Brighton and South Coast Railway Co.—on Nov. 4 last I went out as mate with Stage-man, who was a carman in their employ—we had to deliver some butter at Dixon and Carter's—we stopped on the road to breakfast—we then went to 3, Collingwood Street, Bethnal Green—Stageman then said, "Hand me down one firkin and a tub of the butter"—I did so, and it was taken in to No. 3, Collingwood Street—I saw the prisoner there on that occasion at the door; he took the butter in—I heard him talking to Stageman; I did not hear what was said—I had seen him before with Stageman, about twice, at Willow Walk—he came with us twice for a ride. Cross-examined. He lives at 3, Collingwood Street—Stageman was in charge of the van—I saw everything that was taken down—I was behind—the things were taken off in front—nothing else was taken off at the prisoner's house—I was not there when a brown paper parcel was taken in—when we left Collingwood Street we went to Dixon and Carter's—I was with the van all the day—there was an accident in Dixon and Carter's yard, the pole caught Stageman in the chest, and he went to the hospital. JOHN WILLIAM INGERSOLE . I am a carman in the service of the Brighton Railway Company—on November 4 I was sent to Dixon and Carter's yard to take charge of Stageman's van—I unloaded it—I found 59 tubs of butter and 72 crocks; that was all there was in the van—I looked at the sheet that was given to Stageman. JAMES WALSH (Police-Sergeant M). On November 4, about 1 o'clock, in consequence of circumstances that came to my knowledge, I went with Harvy to Collingwood Street—it is a very low street, nobody living in it as far as I could see but a lot of costermongers; there were a lot of costermongen' barrows in the street—as we were going down Boundary Street a little girl, between 10 and 12, who stood at the public-house at the corner facing Collingwood Street, called out "Coppers"—she ran into No. 3—I and Harvey ran after her as hard as we could; we pushed her into the passage and ran upstairs—the room door was partly open—I jumped inside to the middle of the floor, and said, "We are policemen"—the prisoner and a man named Hill were in the room—I said, "What about this butter?" the firkin of butter and this cloth were standing beside him; the cover was on, but un-fastened—Hill and the prisoner were standing together—I had no sooner spoken than I was hit on both sides by the two—there was a picture there, and I was driven through the picture—the prisoner ran and jumped through the first-floor window and escaped, and Hill was going downstairs—a dog had hold of me behind—I ran after Hill, brought him back, and threw him down on the floor, and Harvey took possession of him—I then searched the room—I found these 5 pieces of cloth, one of which had on the ticket that has been produced; I gave it to Mr. Wright—4 of the pieces of cloth were on the bad, partly open; this black piece was in a box under the bed—I gave evidence here in December, when Stageman was tried and convicted of stealing the butter—I made many inquiries for Tracey, but could not find him—I went to the house night and day—I knew where he was, but every time I went there he was sure to be gone—I afterwards saw him in custody at the Southwark Police-court in January. Cross-examined. Hill was tried for receiving this property, and was acquitted—he pleaded guilty to an assault upon me—I have also preferred an indictment against the prisoner for the assault—he hit me; both of them hit me together—I did not see any more of the girl in the house—the room was a small front-room; there are only four rooms in the house—the land-lady told me the prisoner lived there—the butter was about a yard inside the door. Re-examined. Hill did not live there, he lived at 25, Hackney Road. GEORGE HARVEY (Police Sergeant M). I was in company with "Walsh on this occasion, when the prisoner jumped out of the window; I am quite sure he is the same man—he was charged at the station with taking this butter—he said "All right" or "That's right." ELIZABETH VENABLES . I live with my husband, Charles Venables, at 3, Collingwood Street—the prisoner lodged there for five or six months before November—he occupied the front room upstairs—on 4th November I was there when a tub and a firkin of butter were brought in—the prisoner was in his own room upstairs at the time—I was not present when he was at the door—I saw the two constables come and go upstairs—the prisoner did not come back to his lodging after that day—I did not see the cloth brought to the house; I heard something come on the Saturday night, that was the cloth—I do not know who brought it. Cross-examined. My door was half open, and the prisoner carried the cloth by the room door; it was rolled up in something; I saw a great big bundle on his back—I swear it was the cloth—my name is not Venables, that is the name I go by. JOHN WRIGHT . I am a detective in the employ of the London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway Company—on 4th November last I saw the cloth and took this ticket from it—I know the prisoner; he was in the employ of the Brighton Railway in 1867 for a month all but four days as carman. GEORGE LODGE (Policeman H 98). I arrested the prisoner in Pelham Street, Brick Lane, Spitalfields, on 4th January—I told him I wanted him for the butter job over the water—he said I was wrong. GUILTY of receiving the cloth and stealing the butter . He further PLEADED GUILTY** to a previous conviction at Newington on 8th September, 1878.— Eighteen Months' Imprisonment. 1881 Whitechapel Living at 19 Albert Street (now Deal Street north of Woodseer Street) - married first wife Jane who passed away. 11th March 1883 he was a PC in H Div (98H) and was promoted to PS and transferred to B Div (Chelsea) 14th December 1883 he was a PS in B Div and was transferred to P Div (Camberwell) 1885 Lambeth (married second wife Elizabeth) (very near Camberwell) 1887 P Division 26th May 1888 he was PS No 36P and became PS 4PR (part of P Div Reserve) 1891 Southwark (still in Police) (very near Camberwell) 11th July 1892 he was PS in P (still 4PR) and went to L Div as 5LR (again in the Reserve) 19th September 1892 he was still PS in L Div (5LR) when he was pensioned 19th September 1892 - Discharged (pensioned) as a PS in L Div (Lambeth) – his number was 5LR – the R denotes he was part of the L Division Reserve His conduct mark was 2 which I think was Very Good at that time (1 = Exemplary). 1901 Living in Camberwell 1911 Police Pensioner Clapham 1927 Died.