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    John1919

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    1. Chis, In order to honor the book's copywrite restrictions, it would be better for me to work with a translator on a personal basis that complies with these restrictions. John
    2. Chris, I am not sure after the acquisition of Bohemia by the SS, how much commercial production was devoted to its domestic market. On pages 37 and 38 of Gabriele Huber's Die Porzellan- Manufaktur Allach M?nchen GmbH, she indicates (as best as I can translate the really technical German language text of this reference) that Bohemia's export production (which was a very significant portion of its pre-1940 capacity) was substantially cut back to supply the Wehrmacht, Waffen SS and Rote Kreuz with tableware. On the basis, I would suspect that supplying the Wehrmacht, Waffen SS and Rote Kreuz with tableware was probably also a higher priority for Bohemia than suppling the local population. Consistent with this inference is Huber's statement on page 38 of the same reference which states that (after 1941 as best as I can translate) utilitarian items were to be produced at Bohemia and decorative wares were to be produced at Allach. Accordingly, I would not rule out some of Bohemia's production finding its way into the civilian population, but it seems to me that Bohemia's primary mission after acquisition by the SS was to supply functional items for the Wehrmacht, Waffen SS and Rote Kreuz. Thus I would infer that more Bohemia's production wound up in Wehrmacht and Waffen SS barracks than in town. As I stated, Huber's book is very difficult for one not fluent in the German language to translate. Accordingly, if there are any forum members fluent in German interested in helping to translate the corresponding text to insure that I have extracted its proper meaning, please feel free to contact me. Best regards, John
    3. I just also wanted to mention that there is substantial documentation [see Grabriele Huber's book (dissertation) on PMA] that Bohemia under SS control produced tableware for use by Germany's Red Cross and armed services. To me, it appears very plausible that this mug could have been issued to an SS unit.
    4. Gentlemen, A while back I purchased Gabriele Huber?s Allach book (German language). Since receiving it I have (with the kind assistance of friends who speak fluent German) initially reviewed the books discussion of the relationship between the expansion of Allach (PMA), the relationship Allach between Bohemia, etc. Interestingly, Huber states on page 37: ?Dabei war das Verh?ltnis zwischen PMA und Bohemia prima facie nicht ganz eindeutig, Innerhalb der DWB bzw. des HAVW hat die PMA ebenso wie die Bohemia die Stellung einer Tochtergesellschaft bzw. bilden beide ein gemeinsames Amt; gleichzeitig stellt sich die PMA "im Innenverh?ltnis" als Hauptunternehmen dar, dem in der Bohemia gewisserma?en eine "Filiale" zur Verf?gung steht. So wird beim Abschlu? der ?bernahme der Bohemie- Aktien im Monatsbericht der PMA f?r Mai 1940 vermerkt: "Der Betrieb in Neurohlau [bohemia] wurde am 16.5.1940 ?bernommen?; ebenso vermittelte die Gesch?ftsf?hrung der PMA Gro?auftr?ge an die Bohemia - etwa Kantinengeschirre - wie in den Gesch?ftspr?fungsberichten 1940/41 belegt, und ?berlie? ihr "Mutterformen f?r Vasen" zur Herstellung? This text indicates that in 1940 Allach (PMA) provided ?mother forms for vases? to Bohemia. To date, this is the only reference I have found in Huber?s (or any other book) book to Allach providing its molds to Bohemia (or any other porcelain factory). Huber cites a reference to the document NS 3/vorl281 (Werkbericht des Amtes III B f?r Januar 1940) to substantiate this information. Interestingly, Huber?s text and this reference is VERY specific to Allach providing VASE (and, by inference, possibly only vase) molds to Bohemia on, or before, 1940. I have not yet been able to determine if the full connotation of the word ?mutterformen? in German might extend to include molded, but unfinished (undecorated) pieces. Irrespective of the exact latitude of the meaning of ?mutterformen?, Huber?s book and the corresponding cited contemporary German document unequivocally indicates that Allach and Bohemia had a very specific (and possibly unique) relationship to cooperate to JOINTLY produce vases for the SS. Given this additional information, at least for me, it is not much of a stretch to conclude that Allach and Bohemia, at least in the beginning, cooperated closely to jointly produce prototype or presentation examples of vases. Moreover, I think it is fair to also infer that despite Bohemia?s acquiring ?Mutterformen f?r Vasen" from Allach, Bohemia never produced (or finished) vases using Allach mold designs on a large scale as otherwise other surviving examples of ?Allach Bohemia? vases would have come to light. The above text from Huber?s book also indicates that there seemed to, at least initially, some confusion regarding the corporate relationship between Allach and Bohemia. Accordingly, it seems that Allach producing vases that might be finished (decorated) at Bohemia might have been a business model that the SS explored through limited joint production of prototype vases, etc. that was abandoned as the definition of Allach?s and Bohemia?s became better defined. Best regards, John
    5. Bohemia (in the context of the Bohemia Ceramic Works) is the name of the company (short for Bohemia Ceramic Works), NOT the designation of country of origin required to comply with import (export) laws. Pre-war china, etc. manufactured by Bohemia Ceramic Works for export also contained a designation such as "Made in Czechoslovakia". I have attached a pre-war BOHEMIA export marking to exemplify. I have also attached a second SS Bohemia marking for reference. Best regards, John
    6. J?rgen, The SS Bohemia maker's mark drawing I posted above was from a reference source but I can not actually remember seeing an SS Bohemia maker's mark with "BOHEMIA" or "B?HMEN" except for the one present on my Bohemia Allach vase discussed in an earlier thread that appears to either be a prototype, presentation or transitional piece. I have attached to this post a more typical SS Bohemia mark that is present on a German Red Cross cup that appeared on ebay several months ago. The mark on this cup is very similar to the mark on your mark. If anyone has any other SS Bohemia maker's marks of validated authenticity it would be very helpful if you could post them for reference as I have not seen any examples in Huber's or Passmore's books. Best regards, John
    7. The maker's mark is very similar in design to the Bohemia porcelain factory mark that was used after the SS took over administration of the factory. Bohemia produced mostly tableware during its tenure under the SS (consistent with the mark appearing on a coffee mug). Typically, however, the SS Bohemia mark was, as I recall, green and had BOHEMIA above the B. In this case, I would say provenance is everything if you are indeed sure of the history. Best regards, John
    8. Hi Robin, Thank you for posting the photos of your example. I think the Allach workers were also a little more careful in applying the dark glaze to your example than mine (hence my comment that mine might be a late war example)! One of the reasons I thought the back version of the No. 89 might be a presentation piece is that black is not listed as a finish option for the No. 89 in the 1938/39 Allach catalog-only the white and white/gold finishes are listed as options. Do you have a feel for the value of the black Allach No. 89 or are there so few examples there is not much previous sales history? Best regards, John
    9. Gentlemen, I had read several threads (on several other forums) regarding the supposed significance of the Diebitsch No. 89 BLACK Kerzenhalter. I'm not sure if all the available information I've read is consistent and whether there is a consensus on this issue or not. I have recently obtained one from a direct heir of a recipient (see attached photo in this post). The quality of the glazing on the bottom would imply to me that the piece might be late war. Accordingly, this would conflict with earlier stated opinions that the BLACK version of the Diebitsch No. 89 BLACK Kerzenhalter was simply the FIRST version of the No. 89. Are they any other theories with regard to the significance of the BLACK versions of the No. 89? Were they awards or presentation pieces? What determined if you received a BLACk No. 89 vs. a WHITE No. 89 vs. a WHITE/GOLD No. 89? Also, does anyone have a feeling for the market value of the black versions in mint condition? Thank you for your opinions and comments, John
    10. Gentlemen, I posted some additional comments on this topic on another forum but I thought there might be interest so I am inluding them below as well: I just wanted to compliment Kris on his excellent summary of how to identify real vs. reproduction Allach marks-very professional!! With this work I think we can all agree Kris has, and is contributing immensely to our hobby and helping to keep us from spending our hard earned money on fakes and reproductions. Kris, I just hope the forgers aren't tuning in As I mentioned to some of you in PMs, I used to collect Third Reich pistols. After a while I did not feel it necessary to disassemble a pistol (remember towards the end of the war authentic guns were created with mismatched parts and finishes due to the haste in production) to determine whether a piece was "good" (or not). Rather I would step back and look at the piece in total (tone of blueing, wear patterns, mill or polishing marks, etc.). Taking this "totality" approach, recognizing pieces that were not original (or "messed with") became easy after gaining experience in the field. I became more confident of conclusions I reached on this basis than any other indicator. On this basis, I never got burned on a gun but some pretty unique and interesting items did come into my possession that I might have not purchased had I taken a no risk, go by the textbook approach. Kris is taking such a "totality" approach in his critical (and fact based) assessment of the veracity of this vase under discussion. I therefore strongly agree with Kris that the strongest argument for the originality of the piece is the "totality"of the piece itself (i.e. the total sum of the the artistic design, the marks, the quality of the execution, etc.). After the destruction of many of the Third Reich's records (in many cases intentional) and more than 60 years of time past we will probably never understand WHY a particular piece may have been produced. It is therefore difficult, if not impossible, to have an objective argument about the WHY a particular piece may have been created unless the appropriate documentation has survived. It therefore seems the best we can do is have a objective argument on the veracity of the piece based upon the artistic design and physical characteristics of piece itself . On the above basis, the questions I would then ask myself are: 1) IF Allach and Bohemia, decided to jointly create a piece, would this piece meet the high technical and artistic standards of both individual companies (and the overseeing SS)? 2) Would the artistic contributions of each company in the work be consistent with the individual company's expertise and would the piece, in total, be artistically unique and better than either company could produce by itself? Otherwise why would two companies (or the SS) choose to do a joint project at all? Should not the offspring of Allach and Bohemia contain the DNA of both parents? 3) Does the piece possess markings that are period and technically correct for both companies? I believe in the case of this particular vase the answers to these three above questions are "yes": 1) In my humble opinion, the quality of this piece does not only meet Allach's high standards of design and execution for vase production and design, it EXCEEDS them (please see original photo posted above). The cut decoration clearly requires a different (and probably higher) skill set than that used on typical Allach vase production and is typical for Bohemian artisans. 2) Allach is unsurpassed for its porcelain quality and the clean, modern design of its vases. Similarly, Bohemia (as a region) is well recognized for its high level of skill in creating cut designs. Together, the two companies produced a piece that unquestionably unique, very high quality and could not have been as well by either company independently. 3) Kris has very professionally addressed the veracity of the Allach markings on the piece. Based upon Bohemia reference markings available with firm "time stamps", the Bohemia marking is correct (can be discussed more if desired). Then, WHY was this vase created? I don't think we will ever know. Do I none the less objectively believe (as opposed to wishful thinking) that this vase was the joint work of Allach and Bohemia Ceramics Works as its markings indicate? Based upon all the totality of the facts surrounding this piece and the piece itself, I do believe it is original and authentic. Because my wife and I don't intend to sell this piece, our peace with the veracity of the vase is its most important validation. From an historical perspective however I would hope this piece is not easily dismissed based upon dated reference works as in doing so we might lose some clues to the past and impede our advancement of knowledge in the future. Best regards to all, John
    11. Gentlemen, My reexamination of the photos indicates that the green BOHEMIA mark was placed over the green Allach mark. Thus the process to produce this vase seems to be: 1) Production of an Allach #503 vase (including the "503" impressed mark and the raised Allach octagon) 2) Application of the usual period Allach green markings inside the Allach octagon 3) Application of the usual period "Bohemia" Ceramic Works AG marking over the usual period Allach markings inside the Allach octagon 4) Application of glaze over both the Allach and "Bohemia" Ceramic Works AG markings I'm sure most of you noted my error but I just wanted to explicitly clarify. I apologize for any inconvenience. Apparently, exicitement and advanced age are not a good combination Please send me a PM with tyour email address if you wish a high resolution copies of the markings. Best regards, John
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