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    SprogCollector

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    SprogCollector last won the day on December 26 2011

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    1. This is almost assuredly a Handelsmarine (German Merchant Navy) tunic for a 3rd officer.
    2. In looking through period photos, as well contemporary photos of uniforms in collections, I'm confused over the tresse used on collars, boards, and chevrons of naval personnel. Did coastal artillery use/wear a different style/pattern of tresse for its NCOs than shipboard counterparts? I ask due to seeing a myriad of tresse styles being worn on the naval field grey uniforms. Just a few examples: gold versions of the Heer style NCO tresse; gold versions of the Luftwaffe waffle-pattern tresse; 9mm officer rank lace being worn as NCO collar tresse, etc. My followup question pertains to the boards/collars of the blue naval uniforms. Was the correct tresse for these uniforms the 0.9cm gold style with the longitudinal ribbing? Again, I see mostly ribbed tresse but the widths appear to vary slightly. Lastly, did the tropical blue tresse exist in a pattern or was it simple plain blue cloth ribbon of the appropriate width? I'm still looking for a copy of the Angolia KM, volume 1 so don't have a copy to reference as I'm presuming this info is contained within. Thanks for your replies. Chris
    3. Gents: I have a question on the blue, double breasted, officer reeefer jackets. In looking at photos, there seems to be wide variation with button placement although most seem to adhere to have 10-button fronts. The buttons also appear to be consistent in that the lower pair is roughly level with the tops of the pocket flaps. The uppers seem to range all over the place. Here is my question: Is this apparent inconsistency of button placement actually the result of the buttons being placed a set distance apart with the garment size creating the illusion of varying button placement? For example, if the buttons were placed 4cm apart, a jacket for someone wearing a smaller size would have buttons appearing to go higher up the chest. A tall person would appear with buttons ending lower on the chest. Same placement, visually much different. Alternatively, was there just a very loose set of specifications resulting in all jackets being different?
    4. The jacket shown is not a final pattern denim. A number of details are missing. Battledress have a pronounced notch in the collars where the collar stand (which also holds the collar hooks) is located. The blouse shown is missing this entire piece. If you take the image into photo shop and play with the brightness and contrast, you'll see that texture has quite a sheen (suggesting possibly leather) and that the waistbelt is very short and held across by a large button. Also, as I've noted in a separate thread, the designation of M40 for this style is incorrect. The plain pockets (no pleats) did not come into use until 1942 with most not being issued until 1943 or later. To be completely accurate (but using modern collectors terms), the denims were P39 (brown/pleated pockets), P40 (green/pleated pockets), and P42 (green/unpleated pockets). I've always been extremely skeptical over whether Kriegsmarine actually captured any stocks of the green, pleated-pocket denims. Issued items would bear an acceptance stamp consisting of a letter surmounting a W /I\ D with a number below. The letter designates the year of acceptance onto inventory while the manufacturers label indicates time of manufacture. Often there are lags of months to years between manufacture and acceptance.
    5. Sto, Fellow collector, Ed Storey, has this unissued condition brown denim jacket in his collection. On the green jacket posted above, the March 1940 date is the earliest I've ever seen on the green, pleated pocket examples. I've handled a handful of brown denims through the years and all the worn examples have faded to a brownish-tan color that is still readily identifiable as brown. Sto's first post shows a jacket that appears a mix of the two colors and I suspect that it was likely washed with jackets of the opposite color, resulting in the muddy olive tone it now appears to have. The other option is that the flash has skewed the colors and it's brown??
    6. Here's a nice example of the second pattern denim blouse. It shares the pattern of the original brown jacket and the color of the later green jackets without pocket pleats. A large number of these came onto the market about 6 or 7 years ago.
    7. Hi Sto, Yes. Upon closer look, it's possible your jacket is indeed a very well worn brown jacket. Its also possible it has spent some time in the laundry with green examples and some color may have washed out and mixed, resulting in a hybrid color. These garments were normally collected for washing (British Army) and then re-issued. It was very rare for someone to get back the same items they turned in. Your example appears to have had its shoulderboards removed. I've enquired to other collector friends to get images of their brown examples, as well. As I mentioned, I have one but have never tried to compare it to other examples. Mine is worn but the color is still very much like the image I posted.
    8. Hi Sto, Thanks for posting your images! No. I literally mean brown. The jackets shown are the green versions. Denims were introduced in 1939 and were nearly the same colour as the woolen blouse. The familiar green color appeared a year or so later but maintained the same pattern as the original version. I only have one brown example which I'll try and take photos of next week. They're quite scarce and I'd venture that most were worn out long before the war ended. I've yet to find a definitive document specifying the change from brown to green. Here's a decent photo showing a brown denim worn with a pair of green denim trousers. This image is from "The British Soldier".
    9. Gents, After looking through the excellent thread on U-boat uniforms, I just wanted to point out that the references to P37 and P40 battledress denims aren't entirely correct. The original P37 denims were brown, not green. The green denims with pleated pockets actually didn't come out until 1940 and the final version without pleats didn't come out until mid-1942.
    10. Daniel, Sorry to read about your cap. I think it's actually a postwar Wasserschutzpolizei or Handelsmarine (Merchant Navy) cap, not Bundesmarine. Depending on which state in Germany, some Polizei caps did not have the black cap band and look as yours does. The badges varied and its possible your cap badge has simply had a Bundes cockade replaced with the earlier style. I collect early Bundeswehr items and have a number of early Bundesmarine caps. I would measure the space where a cap band should be. Postwar caps tend to be about 35mm. The Polizei caps are closer to 40-42mm. Not sure about the badge but I also suspect modern. When I lived in Germany in the 1980s, several sailing clubs had similar oval-shaped badges in the same pattern. The ones I recall seeing had DMB in the same place the DMV is on yours. $400 is far too much for these caps. Most are between $30-90. Are you able to get your money back? Chris
    11. Gentlemen: Great discussion. I would also add that the DDR Volksmarine uniform is another jacket frequently seen in Kriegsmarine badging. From a tailoring standpoint, these are the most accurate of the jackets insofar as style is concerned. They come with the correct 5-button front, horizontal lapel button holes, correct striped sleeve linings, etc. The fabric is dark blue although a shade lighter than Bundesmarine. For conversion, they require little alteration. Replace the VM buttons with KM buttons (VM are correct roped anchor); remove the loops and buttons for shoulder rank; and add breast eagle and appropriate rank tresse at the sleeves.
    12. Hi Juergen, Thanks for the link. A few nice Kriegsmarine caps but my interest is for early Bundeswehr. I have Luftwaffe and Heer caps from the mid-1950s to mid-1960s but am still looking for a few Bundesmarine Schirmm?tzen (preferably with non-removable tops) to complete my collection. The white caps are pretty easy to find and are not very expensive. I have a white removable top officer schirmm?tze from 1964 that I like very much. I'm hoping to find a blue top for it sometime. Chris
    13. Thanks Juergen. That would explain my difficulties in locating a blue-top cap for my collection. It sounds as though most caps would have had a removable blue and white top prior to 1968. I wasn't sure since my admiral cap does not have a removable top. Judging by eBay, I suspect most early BM blue-top caps have likely been rebadged as Kriegsmarine hats.
    14. Thanks for your reply! I think I should have worded my question better. I'm familiar with the change to the white top schirmm?tzen during the summer (April thru October) with the blue top worn during the winter months. My question is that it appears the Bundesmarine/Deutche Marine no longer wear the blue top schirmm?tzen at all -- i.e. the white top is worn at all times. I'm trying to determine when this change was made. By your last reply, do you think the change to only wearing white tops occurred in 1968? If this is correct it would then beg the question as to why the caps continued to be produced with removable tops? Unless the tops were removable to allow cleaning?
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