Jump to content
News Ticker
  • I am now accepting the following payment methods: Card Payments, Apple Pay, Google Pay and PayPal
  • Latest News

    Phelan

    For Deletion
    • Posts

      10
    • Joined

    • Last visited

    Recent Profile Visitors

    The recent visitors block is disabled and is not being shown to other users.

    Phelan's Achievements

    Rookie

    Rookie (2/14)

    • First Post
    • Collaborator
    • Conversation Starter
    • Week One Done
    • One Month Later

    Recent Badges

    0

    Reputation

    1. Equally interesting idea but utterly impossible, I think. The RUC were always different from mainland Police for a reason. Mainland Forces just wouldn't have the intelligence support or the degree of ability/credibility to prosecute the sort of campaign that's required, so any concept of Mutual Aid is out of the question for both operational and political reasons. They would be portrayed as modern-day 'Black & Tans' by the Sinn Fein spin doctors. I was a Military Policeman in NI from 1972-74 and we tried to introduce 'Mainland Policing' in the form of joint (RMP/RUC) unarmed patrols in Nationalist areas in late '72 (Hearts & Minds, who would countenance the shooting of unarmed men etc.). The guys were just sitting targets and it took several fatalities/casualties to bring the idea to a close. It's not widely reported that a Policing 'void' is being created in NI by many ex-RUC leaving to work in Iraq/Afghanistan as private contractors. They weren't happy with the whole PSNI deal and could earn more money working privately. They're not leaving in droves but we can assume that most of the best are being snapped up by people like CRG, Armor Group, Kroll etc. Stay in touch. I'll have more to say about this. Phelan
    2. Gents, getting back to the original question, splits have always been enshrined in Irish Republicanism. The standing joke is that the first item on any Ard Feis agenda is what the new break-away group is going to be called and I think this reflects a certain ambivalence in Irish attitudes to UK. There's a strong debate going on here in RoI about the real significance of the Easter Rising. Some take the traditional view (heroes, martyrs, etc.) and some view 1916 and the ensuing War of Independence as utter folly, bearing in mind that the Home Rule Bill was already signed & sealed in 1914 and was only on hold because of WW1. Some see it as a needless anarchy that separated Ireland from the most influential country in the world at the time and left Ireland reeling, economically and politically, for the next sixty years. This ambivalence was reflected at the Country's birth by the Civil War and has been continuously debated both physically and intellectually ever since. The IRA splits constantly because, at heart, it has always lacked any cohesive ideal that could keep it together. They will probably be with us always but their activist numbers will dwindle year on year as potential recruits realise that they're constantly trying to bang on an door that isn't even there. Moving quickly away from any political considerations, it has to be said that NI presents a very interesting military proposition in terms of Low Intensity Operations as the IRA/UDA/UFF etc. morph into bandit groups. HMG spent a long time building up the RUC to be independent of the Military but the PSNI now seems to be anxious to present itself as some sort of a Home Counties Police Force. What they're up against now is probably best understood by reading George MacDonald Fraser's excellent book 'The Steel Bonnets', a history of the border reivers whose criminality laid waste the Scot's/English border in the 15th/16thC. Stuff that 'Community Policing' isn't going to crack. Can PSNI do it without the Military or without continuing to be more militaristic? Discuss!
    3. Thanks Bob. This will be a protracted project as most of the solid material is likely to be held at the British Public Record Office in Kew, London. I work in Africa in the private security industry month on-month off and I can't really justify extended periods in London during my downtime. I hope to be able to focus my study on the activities of the Auxiliaries in W. Cork since it's the area that saw most of the real action. Contrary to popular belief the War of Independence didn't inflame the whole island and membership of the IRA only became really 'fashionable' after the Treaty was concluded (its ranks swelled by the so-called 'Trucileers'). Generally the War seems to have been effectively fought in Cork, Tipperary and Dublin City and by its end it had been more or less 'won' militarily by the British. Politically, however, HMG were looking to get out of Ireland (Irish Home Rule having been one of their primary objectives since the turn of the 19th/20th centuries). Ireland had always been strategically crucial to the defence of England (both the Spaniards, in the 17c, and the French, in the 18c, had landed considerable forces in Western Ireland and the Germans had contemplated it in WW1) and HMG were happy to relinquish Ireland so long as they could be assured of its military integrity. The Treaty clearly assured this and the British continued, as part of the Treaty, to maintain bases in the Free State/Republic until 1938 just to be on the safe side. Ireland's neutrality in WW2 was a thorny issue since British Naval & RAF bases in W. Cork could have extended anti-submarine actions right across the Atlantic and aided the convoys considerably. Ireland remains coy about this phase in her history as many of the goods that sailors died to convoy across were destined for Ireland. The Irish government had a tough job to both justify and maintain its neutrality and were, doubtless, well aware that HMG would re-invade at the drop of a hat if any real favour was shown to the Third Reich. My father, a Tipperary man who was in the British Army (3rd King's Own Hussars) from 1937 to 1947, recounts an interesting story. He was part of the ill-fated expeditionary Force to Greece in WW2 and was finally captured at Malame Airfield in the Fall of Crete. He escaped 15 times in the next 4 years (apparently it was fairly easy to escape but difficult to stay at large) and during one of his sojourns in a Prison Camp all of the Irish prisoners were taken aside and invited to join one of the many 'Foreign Legions' that populated the German Army. To a man they all refused. Two of my Uncles (on my mother's side) were in the Irish Army during WW2 (one subsequently deserted to N. Ireland to join the British Army and the other got himself discharged and went on to join the RAF) and much of their effort was focused on the capture of downed German and Allied airmen. As a neutral country they were obliged to intern combatants from both sides but it was remarkable how many Allied pilots made it back to UK on various medical or other grounds. I recount these tales in order to both inform other members generally and to illustrate the extraordinary military ambivalence that exists between UK and Ireland. There's little real hatred between the bulk of UK and Ireland, they're more like journeyman boxers who are happy to fight each other with great vigour, if there's nobody else worth fighting together, and only really want to split the purse and get on to the piss-up afterwards. Since 1911 (the earliest date for which I have records) every male member of my family, on both sides, has seen active service in the IRA, the Irish Army and/or the British Army and one, John Cunningham, won the VC in WW1. The rest of us did it elsewhere in the North West Frontier, WW1, WW2, Korea (cousin in the 8th Irish Hussars, captured at the Imjin River), Kenya, Aden, Cyprus, N. Ireland (no medals of any note in those campaigns). Yet we would all (still living) support Ireland when it comes to sport, especially Rugby, (the real test of nationality). Anyway, further to the War of Independence references, check out anything by Peter Hart, 'The IRA at War', 'The IRA and Its Enemies' for instance. Hart's history of this period is a little controversial because he's actually applying historical, psychological and sociological principles to his work. In terms of academic rigour he's the only one doing it for this period of Irish history. ATB Phelan
    4. Thanks Nick, in Ireland the mere passage of time does not confer a badge of historicity on any event. I've spoken to people in N. Cork who speak of the 17c Battle of Knocknanuss and the death of Lord Inchiquinn as if they were a car crash that happened yesterday and left some current families bereaved. In the case of 1919-22 I think the word 'atrocity' is probably key to understanding what went on. Atrocity wasn't simply an occasional by-product of an otherwise 'clean' war. Atrocity was the entirety of both the strategic and tactical War of Independence as fought by either side (a policy that was to achieve bloody fruition in the Irish Civil War, when Anti-Treaty and Free State forces visited horrors upon each other that made the Tans & Auxiliaries look like Social Workers). Contemporary sources suggest that the Army was unwilling and the RIC/DMP were incapable of fighting that kind of war. The IRA, meanwhile, seems to have been under no real central control, with the actions of local commanders appearing to define a series of faits accomplis that IRA GHQ had to endorse in retrospect in order to maintain an appearance of directing things. The IRA largely became hostage to the sensibilities, or lack thereof, of their local commanders. HMG needed somebody that would and could fight this dirty war, whilst being 'deniable' as 'renegades'. Enter the 'Tans' & Auxiliaries. That's my loose working theory anyway. Phelan
    5. An interesting comparison indeed, but I don't think it holds up for very long. Germany was badly fragmented at this time and had all but descended into anarchy with a variety of virtual warlords attracting allegiance on the grounds of politics, ethnicity/regionalism (to a certain extent), or past Service Records. The Tans & Auxiliaries were much more coherent, driven by a central political impetus and deployed as a solution to a very particular problem. I don't know about their further employment post-1922 but I doubt whether the Regular Forces would have seen their Irish Service as a hindrance. Many seem to have ended up in a variety of Colonial Police Forces (Palestine in particular). Interestingly a number of British Army officers, who were relatively junior in the Irish War of Independence, went on to great things. Montgomery (Bde Major Cork) and Lt Gen Percival of Singapore fame (Intelligence Major Cork) were perhaps the two most famous. Two lectures on guerrilla warfare by Percival (found in a book, 'British Voices' by Sheehan, 2005) are of particular interest as they seem to sketch out many of the tactics and strategies subsequently employed by the British Army during the more recent 'Troubles'. He was deployed in Bandon (a few miles from where I live) with the Essex Regiment who had a fierce reputation in W. Cork, largely because of their success in raiding and countering the activities of IRA Flying Columns. Phelan
    6. Thanks for your reply. I would be most interested in what those 'Tans' had to say even though I'm trying to focus on the Auxilliaries in particular. As far as I'm aware only Richard Bennett has written a book called 'The Black and Tans' (well written but direly referenced) even though one can find 'references' to 'Tans' & Auxilliaries in numerous works. 'The Green Flag', as you say, is one of the most objective works on Irish Nationalism per se but Robert Kee was painting with a broad brush. I'm trying to get specifics relating to: Parliamentary decisions Qualifications Desired/Accepted Scope of Workl Remuneration offered Experiences Reflections
    7. Hi Bob, I fully understand the personal aspects of all this. One of my ancestors at the time was Sean Treacy (shot dead in a gunfight in Dublin by Crown Forces) whilst both my Tipperary Grandfathers fought in the British Army in WW1. I currently live in W. Cork (the real hotbed of violence in the War of Independence) and few of my neighbours' families were left untouched. Indeed, my wife's uncle, a teenager at the time, was shot in the arse by a passing patrol of Tans near Mallow (N. Cork) in a fit of joie de feu. All of this notwithstanding, it's the job of the historian to get beneath individual incidents to try to understand the cogs & wheels that drove them. Poverty in UK drove many men, some Irish, to take the 10 shillings a day for Tans and the ?1 a day for Auxilliaries (massive sums in 1920/21, when I joined the British Army in 1971 I got ?1.10s a day at 1971 rates). Europe in 1920/21 was full of men who knew nothing other than violence and hardship. I want to know what motivated this largesse on the part of UK government and whether it drew in the enterprising, the hopeless, the adventurous etc. Having taken the metaphorical 'King's shilling', what was it that made them work so hard for it, if indeed they did? A sense of duty to Empire, camaraderie, vengeance, badness, drink, an amalgam of all those? It is a fascinating piece of specific research that offers an insight into a whole range of attitudes and policies that went on to shape the future of not just Ireland but the greatest Empire the world had ever seen and, by default, much of the world's history in the 20th Century. All The Best - Phelan.
    8. That may well be the case but I think we have to see them in the context of the time & place they were operating. Too much of what passes for Irish history is little more than propaganda posted by the victors. Only one book has been written about them. It's a good book but lacks footnotes & references. I'm interested in their backgrounds, motivations, experiences etc as they appear in primary sources - records, diaries, letters, conversations etc. I think we owe them that objectivity.
    9. I've been researching the history of the 1919-1921 Irish War of Independence. The RIC Auxiliary Cadet Force (all ex military officers) were reviled as Black and Tans (a separate unit in fact) and I've got the feeling they've had a bad press. I'm trying to get behind the rhetoric and propaganda and find out about the stories of the real people. Material is quite hard to come by. Any ideas?
    ×
    ×
    • Create New...

    Important Information

    We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.