peter monahan

Perhaps he kept his own Tiger for reasons of sentiment or superstition - "lucky tank", "crack crew" or whatever. I watched the doc. not long ago [on YouTube, I think] and was fascinated by the elaborate and fascinating forensic reconstruction of the battle, though the [computer generated]shot of the turret blowing off when she brewed up was shown about 25 times! And I think I remember that Wittman's tank was numbered way out of sequence from the other two tanks hit in the same action - even a different number of digits Say, 04 & 09, then 152 for Wittman. Those weren't the numbers, but you get the idea, and I do recall thinking at the time that "He's had that tank for a while." Maybe one he scored a lot of kills in?

For what it's worth at this late date, there's a theory!

Peter

Just an amendment to my previous post. The prize money period actually covered 1 Jan - 10 Apr 14. That'll teach me to do it from memory! Doesn't alter the gist of my query though.

Paul

I've been doing a very little research in regards prize money for British [Newfoundlander] officer who helped capture two American schooners in Lake huron [Canada] in 1814. Prize monies had to be decided on by a Prize Court - usually run by/from the Admiralty - after the loot/captured ships were sold, then portioned out to the recipients. My guy got L45 in 1819 but in 1825 was in London, still chasing the prize agent for the balance. The agent, BTW, had apparently left for France and was not expceted to return.

All that is an aide but, given the time and distances involved the only way, in my view, for the system to have worked was to take the muster rolls for the relevant period and use those as the awards list. Remember that prize amounts were dependant on rank, so it would get hopelessly convoluted if one used the rolls from any later period, especially as dead, desrted and time-expired soldiers would not appear on the latter.

Not to say that there weren't people on a regiments who weren't there, but I think that would have been rare. Keep if mind that it was in the interest of every quailifed applicant and the prize agents to exclude those not qualified, as the money was paid in 'shares': not a set sum but some measureable fraction of the total. In short [Too late!] - yes, a soldier would have had to be on the ground for at least part of the period to get any money. Keep in mind too how anal War Office clerks were about giving out ANY money! Not much chance of someone getting a free ride.

My tuppence plus, and welcome to it!

Peter

I recall once seeing some paperwork relating to the order with a WWI Aussie group, so I think they go back that far at least. Where else and when else they existed I've no idea.

Brian

If you failed 'humour' in school you're in good company with this lot, mate! :cheeky:

Gordon

I love uniforms that act like road maps/calenders! Thanks for sharing this one, though for some odd reason when I first saw the title I was anticipating a long joke, probably to do with neutrality!

Peter

"A priest, a nun and a Swiss border guard walk into a bar." :speechless:

I use my underwear as a backdrop.... we in the infantry like things rough!

Nope! Not going there! :speechless1:

Not up on my CanFor regulations any more, but I do know we have a number of bearded lads in Afghanistan right now. It may be a dispensation for those over there but I think more likely is either the Pioneer theory - we do have them and some are bearded - or it mat be a hioldover from the mercifully brief (only 3 decades) flirtation with a "Canadian Armed Forces" rather than an army, navy and airforce.

The Forces were amalgamated in the '70s - one colour uniform, one rank structure, the possibility of serving in all three 'elements' during one's career and some other oddities too painful to recollect. Several of the unanticipated outcomes were the problem with having a number of "Captains" on one ship - we used the Land element [Army] ranks at first and the contention - upheld on appeal - that if a Sea Element ranker ['sailor' in quaint terms] could grow a beard, so could an Air element or Land element ranker!

I shall endeavour to get a better answer on this!

Peter

Do 'almost losses' count?

I am reading the journal of an RN Lieutenant who served in Upper Canada from 1812-1816, including some time as a POW south of the border during the late unpleasantness with Brother Jonathon. Upon his release in 1815 he went to Kingston (Ontario, Canada) wher he was posted briefly to HMS St. Lawrence, then finishing construction. She would have been the largest ship in His Majesty's Navy - 100 guns - but due to an outbreak of peace was never fully frunished and crewed, though I believe she came into commission briefly.

On her maiden cruise, St Lwarence was struck by lightining while carrying, according to Lt Wingfield, some 600-800 sailors and the same number of soldiers. According to Wingfield some damage was done to the mainmast - the point of impact so to speak - but the 30+ powder charges for the 32 pounders, carried in the orlop deck magazine, did not explode, else he would not have been able to write anything.

Even allowing for exageration - and I doubt there were 800 sailors in all of Upper Canada - a casulty list of 1000+ would rank as 'pretty awful' / 'pretty repsectable', would it not?

Well done!

I have to say that I am as interested in the histories as the medals. Perhaps more so, which is why I can quite happily research a medal or group I don't own and would have little interest these days in an unresearchable medal. The depth of detail you've managed to scout out is truly impressive. I also feel pretty strongly that no one's service was not important. Cooks and clerks play a huge part in any army and any war - ask a vet! And being away from home for years on end, living in the kind of surrondings typical of WWI camps and depots was no joke either!

Lovely collection. Thanks for sharing.

Peter

In the photo of the 'broken down' car, the woman holding the rifle is probably there because the driver/soldier is being cautious and keeping it near to hand in case of need. I suspect the caption - "Does she want to go in the woods" - means that the young lady needs a toilet. Not very polite but the first thing that occurred to me when I saw the photo! (I have been on many long long car rides and woods are very useful if no other toilet is available.)

A really interesting group of photos. I hope you will update this post as you find out more about the lady.

Peter

Dean

The "ELG" marking is a proof mark from the Belgian city of Liege, where there was a large arsenal and firearms manufacturing operation. One source I saw specifically mentions the 'crowned oval' with ELG inside.

Today many armed forces, including Canada's are armed with weapons from "FN" - Fabrique Nationale de Belgique (spelling?) and Belgian pieces, especially revolvers were prodeuced in Liege and sold to armies and others all over Europe up to and including WWII. One piece made in Belgium was a "Lilliput" revolver - obviously a 'boot' 'purse' or 'holdout' gun, notable for its small size and concealability.

Looks like a very complex topic - multiple factories, factories under licence in other countries and so on. Adding to the confusion is the fact that Leopald Gasser - proof mark "LG" - made very good revolvers in the nineteenth century and his work was widely copied, including fake proof marks.

This site may give you a starting point: http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/a%20a%20site%20belge%20gb.htm

Nice piece, btw.

Happy New Year

Peter

"Before 1939, British army troops were allowed, with permission from their commander, to grow a beard. ... In many British Commonwealth armies it is traditional that the Pioneer Sergeants attached to the infantry has a beard. This goes back to the days when they used to stick the slow burning fuze into their beards for safekeeping when assembling explosive charges. ... "

Generally spot on, but the 'reason' for the beards on pioneers is a romantic embellisment. Think about it! Why would you carry a lit fuse in a mass of (flammable) hair, where burning bits could fall into the powder charge you were assembling? Grenadiers in the 17th century British Army carried their slow match in a perforated brass case attached to their cross belts and so would have pioneers if they needed slow match. Blackbeard the pirate, on the other hand, allegedly stuffed his beard with slow match to terrify his victims. The real reason for bearded pioneers has already been given: they left camp well ahead of the body of the battalion, to clear the roads, and so didn't take time to shave. BTW, in Napoleonic times, both soldiers and sailors shaved only twice a week anyway - Wednesdays and Saturdays - so our 'clean shaven' and theirs looked a little different.

Canada amalgamated its army navy and air force into the Canadian Armed Forces back in the '70s and one result was that sailors and soldiers and airmen were all permitted to cultivate face hair. Not sure what the current regsulations are. I also recall reading that during the nineteenth century WWI, when the British Army encouraged the growing of moustaches, one had to obtain permission to stop shaving the upper lip but also to start again. It may have been the same for naval beards and was meant, I assume, to prevent lazy sorts from shaving only irregularly and escaping the wrath of sergeants and bosuns by claiming to be growing beards and simply "staring over" every few days!

It is very High C of E.....

It does sound very High Church, doesn't it? The current Pontiff - whom one of my sisters refers to scornfully as "that German bishop" - is flirting with re-uniting the Anglicans with Holy Mother Church again.

What I find most interesting however is the quaint notion that Charles was "Charles the Martyr"! It's been some years since I read the history of that period but I don't recollect that he did anything particularly holy or even pro-Church and in my books, simply being whacked by political opponenets hardly qualifies as grounds for canonization. Sounds a bit like the proponents of "Saint Evita" in the Argentine!

Peter

Just a small note to remind you guys that pregnant women are allowed to travel.... my youngest daughter concieved in Scotland and with a Scottish name just happened to be in Australia when she was born.. so is Australian, if we'd been in transit over to S. Africa to live, it would have happened an Australian won the VC in S.Africa. I actually know a good half dozen people born "on the move" so to speak, they are all technically of the country of birth origin, though they are all Scottish to all intents and purposes.

C

I was thinking exactly the same thing! I was born in the USA, of two Canadian parents, and while the US government apparently still claims me (I've never actually written them to say 'No thanks' to US citizenship) I'm Canadian legally and emotionally, by upbringing and by inclination. As the Duke of Wellington said, when being twitted on being born in Ireland, "Not everything that comes out of a stable is a horse." Perhaps Peter Brown was the son of some enterprising Briton who was travelling, working or fighting in or for Sweden. Doesn't make him a Swede, though, does it? Fascinating puzzle though, however it turns out!

Snoopy

I admire your obvious interest, your extremely high skill level but, most of all, I admire your patience! Superb work! Thanks for sharing it.

Peter

On a more serious note, I wonder how often the SA Navy has their guns x-rayed for barrel fissures. As someone who hangs about where muskets and cannon are fired regularly, I have a healthy respect for the destructive power of a flawed barrel. Probably just as well the charge is ignited by electricty rather than be someone holding a linstock and - optimistically - ducking away as he touches off the charge!

I know of three cases where premature detonation during loading has cost the fingers and/or hands of the loader - one to a friend who now sports a surgically reconstructed 'Frankenthumb'. Obviously that's not an issue with a once in 24 hours rate of fire, or even once in 48 if they alternate the guns, but there are a number of horror stories in 'the hobby', mostly from the early days of US Civil War reenacting. The latest I know of occurred several years ago now. An iron gun was loaded and fired in the parking lot of a US veterans' club at midnight. "Alcohol may have been a factor." It burst and while the 3 gunners escaped with very minor injuries a luckless pedestrian was fatally trepanned by a flying shard. They're great fun, but they're not toys!

Sermon over

Peter

I attended University of Toronto Faculty of Law. The large auditorium we used for classes was right on the curve of Queen's Park Crescent, perhaps 400 feet from where the 105s of the 7th Regiment R.C.A. lined up to fire salutes for the opening of the Legislature. I remember one day watching the non-Toronto students jump as the first round was fired. (It did sound as if a truck had hit the outside of the building, which had no windows).

And you all thought Michael was a normal human being! I attended the same university and my fondest memory was of crossing the park as the first round was fired. A small black tree rat ("squirrel" to some) had been calmly grooming himself and minding his own business on a tree limb about 30 yards in front of the howitzer muzzle. When the round fired he went straight out from the branch about 10 yards before he even began to fall and when he hit the ground, all 4 little paws flailing frantically, he went across 5 lanes of traffic and up the side of a four story stone building without slowing down a bit.

Peter

P.S. Michael doesn't actually practice law, so its ok to associate with him, at least electronically - he has nothing catching.

PPS If you're as much a fan of tree rats as I am, check YouTube for a clip called "Keeping Squirrels Off your Porch". It features a colender, four strong elastic ropes and... flying squirrels.

Mervyn wrote:

I have particularly enjoyed looking at the earlier patterns of shakos - Fencibles were an early form of local defense unit in Britain - I think the derivation of the word is from the French.

Correst! The full form of the word was "defencible", with fairly obvious linguistic ties to both the French ('defencable', I believe) and English "defensible". These troops were raised during the Napoleonic Wars - 1780-1815 - to defend England or its colonies and couldn't be sent on foreighn service. It was a way to get enlistment among the militias and war weary civillians, as Fencibles were paid and organized as regular troops but without the danger of being sent to Europe, the 'Fever Islands' or some other tropical hellhole.

Peter Monahan, Sergeant,

Royal Newfoundland Fencible Infantry

(War of 1812 reenactment unit)

1917-1918 photograph (cropped) as Captain Signal Corp Reserve.

Nice shots! The story behind those last three must be interesting - Private - Major - Sergeant. Was he really good or ...? :lol:

Nice thread and great 'threads'! May I ask what the neck order is?

Peter

I think Peter knows but has just forgotten to say that the crown on the badge is the style used durng the regn of QEII.

Yeah, what he said! That dates it no earlier than 1952, when our dear old queen was coronated. Thanks for picking up the fumble, Leigh!

Just received this today. I'm told the translation is "Through Adversity to the Stars" and that it is dated 1912.

Any info would be appreciated.

Ed

"Per Ardua Ad Astra" is indeed the motto of the RCAF and your translation is correct. Unfortunately for whoever dated it, the RCAF was not formed until May 29, 1925. Before that it was the Canadian Air Corps [1914-15} and the Canadian Air Force {1916-18] and, I think, was actually dormant from 1919-1925.

I think what you have is a blazer badge for a former member of the RCAF and is essentially undateable. The RCAF is now called "Canadian Forces Air Force" though it was the "Canadian Forces Air Element" for a period after we "unified" our armed forces back in the Sixties,[d**n all meddling politicians anyway!]

The CFAF retains the motto and the albatross [NOT an eagle!] portrayed on yr badge.

Hope this helps.

Peter

"I have always been under the assumption that any British recipients were also awarded the Star. Perhaps those other than British were only awarded the medal?... In this hobby sweeping statements and assumptions are quite often proven incorrect as there seems to be a lot of Egypt Medals on the market compaired to the availablilty of the Stars. It makes me wonder if the issue of both was not as common as I have been lead to believe."

I suspect the scarcity of the Stars in the UK is more likely the result of their having been thrown away by buyers in Africa and points East. I was once lucky enough to see a whole suitcase full of India General Service Medals, all three types and all to Indians, which had just come off a plane from Delhi. The Indian dealer had bought them in villages by weight, for the silver value. I, almost miraculously I thought, was able to get 6 to an Indian officer - VCO - of cavalry. He was entitled to 8 but this chap blandly told me that his 'pickers' threw away all the brass ones including those for WWI. Makes one want to weep or scream!

Interesting that two of the surviving recipients were foreign volunteers - a Dane and an Estonian - and even more intersting that each is listed as living in his native country. Wonder what the neighbours think! :o

Regarding the first photo, my understanding is that a portmanteau is or was a form of leather travelling trunk. Simon

That's correct: a leather trunk. The 'orange' tinge to the photos is not uncommon in older photos and is a result of the photographic chemicals - never completely washed out of the paper - breaking down over time. A skilled photographic conservator might be able to retore them but, sadly, the price would likely be prohibitive. A fascinating collection of what Kipling called "the small change" of a soldier's life. Thank you for sharing it!

Peter

RP

Can't see any photo, but that may be my computer (or account?)

Your use of an obviously 'wrong' thread colour is very interesting. In the museum business - which we're not, most of us - repairs are generally meant to be as unobtrusive as possible. However, the companion idea is that all repairs are documented and, ideally, can be reversed at some later date if need be. The fact that lots of stuff gets/got fixed with no documentation is the bane of curators' and restorers professional lives but doesn't invalidate the theory.

Collectors, sadly, don't always dsiplay the same fine scruples vis a vis documentation and we've all seen many many cases of artifacts which have been "improved" to improve saleability or increase the price. So, your 'off colour' thread is a good compromise. Well done!

As to your Blue helmet ("Blues" helmet?) and velvet, contact any of the nineteenth century military reenactors in your area and they may be able to steer you to a source for period appropriate fabric and thread. A hobby shop might provide sheet or strip brass in various guages too, if you feel adventurous!

Good luck with the project and please do post photos when you've done!

Peter