peter monahan

Looks like a Second Battalion badge to me: Royal West Syrcusian Space Dragoons (2nd Batt). The second Battalion is, of course, a depot and reinforcement unit, so you don't see the badge very often. Their the poor bu**ers who've suffered traumatic war wounds and have to get by with only 5 or 6 limbs each. :rolleyes:

I'll have to dig out my sources for this one, but off the top of my head, here's a bit on Question 2:

2) Epaulettes. I suspect these may have varied by unit but I'm looking for confirmation. Also, were epaulettes at one point adopted on all field service uniforms?

Regiments wore brass shoulder titles on their epaulettes during WWI. Most were simple numbers or letters: '30L' for the 30th Lancers, "CIH" for the Central India Horse, 'Punjabis' in a half moon shape with the regiments number on top and so on. A few units used actual devices from their badges 0- I'll dig some out when I can.

BTW, I assume you know that, even as late as 1914, regiments, especially in the cavalry, bought their own uniforms and badges, so that the Dress Regs. for the IA were compiled by having each unit send in a list/description of what they wore, rather than being told what to wear. This meant a wide range of usefullness in the detail provided, everything from 'in the regimental pattern' to actual measurements of the stripe width on the lungis [turbans].

I don't recall when/if the regiments went to two patterns of dress for ORs, though a British officer in a mounted unit could have up to 10-12 orders of dress: mounted & kurta, truban etc, dismounted and khurta, dismounted and Br style dress, etc etc. Orders of dress tended to depend on what was worn over the kurta rather than which kurta worn, but again I'll have to check for details.

Anyway, more to follow.

Peter

Thanks, Les. I knew someone would know!

Peter

" During his years as a soldier he was afflicted with many of the usual maladies that beset soldiers"

Musn't be prejudiced, Peachy! :rolleyes:

What does a Regiment have to do these days then in order to get a Battle Honour? I know several Regiments got Iraq 2003, among others. Can we expect any for Afghanistan, in the near future?...

Sadly, the short answer is probably "take some serious casualties", that too often being used as the benchmark against which to measure the collective valour of military units. And, of course, being perceived as having 'won' the relevant action(s), a fairly slippery conclusion in modern 'low intensity' warfare.

OTOH, I'm fairly sure I remember two unique 'honours' to a British regiment, earned in the American Revolution and jealously guarded since. Someone smarter than I can doubtless fill in the details.

The first: a regiment was attacked by American 'patriots'/'rebels' while the officers were at dinner and were forced to defend themselves, at least temporarily, with snatched-up improvised weapons. Subsequently they earned the signale distinction of being permitted to wear swords in the mess. I want to say that was the Royal Welch but I'm not certain.

The second: British infantry attacked an American camp at night and bayopnetted some of the enemy as they lay sleeping or while they struggled to rise and arm themselves. The Americans later threatened "No Quarter" for members of that regiment, who responded by adding red hackles to their caps as a taunting identifier: "Here wew are! Come and get us!".

As I said, I'm trusting someone with a younger brain or a better bookshelf than mine to fill in the names, ranks and serial numbers here.

Peter

Are there any groupings or evidence that suggests any German WW1 Vets that fought as Americans in WW2? If there is any evidence of this(I would be surprised if there were not), lets see it here!

Again, not exactly what you asked, but there was at least one serving officer of the Canadian Army in the 1950's-1970's who had come to Canada just post-WWII and was in fact entitled to an Iron Cross earned in the last year of the war. The speculation revolved around whether he could legally have worn it on his Cdn Forces uniform, though I can't recall now whether he ever did. I suspect not.

While some of my collector friends are prone to criticize our American brethren as "medal crazy & clasp happy" it isn't unknown in British units either: I've certainly seen medals to men who had added bars which others in same the unit were legitimately entitled to even if they themselves were not for some reason.

I also recall reading, years ago, an officer's account of travelling through South Africa - close to the end of the War - and watching some of the troops on his train "awarding" theselves for one of the state bars (Trasvaal?) as soon as they'd crossed the boundary of that state. Perhaps this gent felt he should have gotten the bar and wasn't inclined to let the lack of his name on some list stop him from wearing it!

Or, has been suggested, he may simply have been the victim of a clerical error by an anonymous mint worker and never bothered to rectify it. If I were buying three bars, especially one with some added attraction such as this one, I'd be quite be comfortable with this one.

My tuppence worth and change! :cheeky:

There were lots of these on the market in the UK in the 1980's, being sold by the likes of "World Wide Arms" of Birmingham & the like, advertised as days of the Raj Indian riot shotguns & with the forestocks bound in cord.

I believe that the "P" is the mark of the Peshawar Arsenal. It and Rawalpindi seem to have done a lot of re-working of older small arms - at one point Canada was flooded with Martini-Henry rifles (1880-1900 vintage) which had all been re-stocked in 'Pindi & Peshawar.

The cord binding on the forestock sounds lie the kind of re-inforcement seen on SMLEs used to launch rifle grenades, though most of those have wire bindings. I wonder whether perhaps this piece was intended to use blank shotgun shells to launch tear gas canisters or something similar. Interesting puzzle!

Sorry! Just re-read previous post and realized that the stock binding was on the pieces Leigh referred to and not this weapon. My bad. :(

I assume that everyone has at least one chum who fishes and is therefore familiar with the miraculous way in which certian fish (in certain stories) keep growing for years after they're boated and knocked on the head. Sadly, this looks like the same phenomenon: someone who propably is/was a genuine combat warrior but who, for whatever reason feels the need to magnify his deeds and so, his war record "just keeps growing".

A shame when, as someone else pointed out, a veteran of the Legion from War Two would almost inevitably have a very respectable, legimately earned, set of medals. I think that we, who take war and medals so seriously, tend to forget that every army in every era has had the same percentage of real heroes, 'ordinary Joes' and braggarts and outright frauds. I'm not putting the good sergeant in any one of those categoris, but it's human nature to maginify one's own deeds and soldiers ar no more or less liable the trait than anyone else.

BTW, happy holidays and Merry Chrsitmas to all!

Peter

Nice one, Chris! As you say, the level of violence recorded and implied by the description is unlike anything in modern (post WWI) warfare, except in rare cases.

I've just started looking at the WWI stuff again, while tracking down the career of a great-uncle who served with the Canadians in 1918. He went into the trenches in March 1918, just after an Allied attack which cost his unit 85% casualties, and was invalided out (to England) on 1 November 1918 just before another attack, which again cost the battalion 75-85% casualties. And, incredibly, there were 120 or so of the original 1200 who served 4 years and marched into Germany at the end. In World War II a unit with 40-50% losses would have been pulled out of action. These guys got a week or two in a "quiet sector" in support then went back into the front line with reinforcement drafts. Mind boggling! :speechless1:

Very nice pictures: lot of detail. Are the squarish caps on the rankers are typical of the Serbian Army for this period?

Norstrum

I believe that the substance inside your bag is 'cordite', the propellant in most modern ammunition except, oddly enough, some large artillery shells. Cordite can be moulded or shaped into various forms, including the rod shape you show. The rod shape, by the way, is intended to leave air space so that the whole charge will 'burn' at once.

Also, while cordite is quite stable as explosives go, it is made up of 30-50 % nitroglycerin mixed with various stabilizers and old explosives are nothing to fool with! The piece you show is, by itself, powerful enough to take your hand off at the wrist or worse.

Don't panic, but if I were you I'd only keep a small amount to display with the shell and bag and get rid of the rest. If you don't want to inviolve the police or whoever does that in Sweden, consider putting it back in water - a river or a lake, spread around so there isn't any large amount of it in one place.

Neat rare thing!

Peter

The South African VM is bilingual and British issue WWII medals aren't named whereas South African and Australian are. I'm not sure about other Commonwealth countries though.

Tony

Canadian WWII medals are in silver but are NOT named. Sorry.

Jason

I took my first run through the British WWI records this month - favour to a friend who's dad served.

As someone said, "Ancestry.com" has now got a lot of the records on-line. If you go to the National Archives there is a link to their site.

Unfortunately, almopst half the actual service records - enlistment papers et al - were burned in 1940. The remainder, called the "burnt documents" apparently give you about a 1 in 4 chance. However, I believe that the medal cards - listing entitlement and naming - are complete or nearly so, so one can find out what a soldier won and, sometimes, maybe, some extra info.

Good luck with the medal!

Peter

I know nothing about Irish medals and not much good about e-Bay, but I can I assume that both of you, "PET" and "IRISH COLLECTOR", are willing to provide your real names to this forum and, in the case of The Collector, at least the names and e-mail addresses of the 4 other collectors who are prepared to vouch for your goods?

I have absolutely no axe to grind here, but after thirty years of collecting and hanging about with collectors, I am sadly aware of how often disagreements turn into fights and even accusations of dishonesty. Presumably, since both of you want to clear the air and help bons fide collectors collect 'good' items, you'll want to give the rest of this forum as much information as you can to help us reach an accurate understanding as to what's really going on.

Interested but uninvolved

Peter

Nick

A short story in the Toronto (Ontario, Canada) this week about a Montreal man who died 5 days before the opening of a show at the Montreal Museum of Art which showcased an apparently major collection of Napoleonic items, including locks of his (N's) hair. Apparently tyhe man collected for decades and donated the stuff to the museum recently. Sorry I haven't more details but I'll tryo to look some out at work and post again tomorrow if I can.

Peter

Gents:

Just an update on my question concerning Abram Fraser above.

He is shown on the census as being one year old, the son of Andrew & Elizabeth Fraser and being born in the township of Seymour, County of Northumberland, Ontario, Canada. He is listed on that census as ABRAHAM. However, all of his records and all of the documents he signed for land/transfer and pay were signed ABRAM.

nitram

Nitram

I've been doing some genealogical stuff lately and, if you hadn't already figured this out on your own, "Abraham" on the census roll is almost certainly a case of the census-taker writing down what he thought he heard and not checking with the parent(s) providing the information. Such mistakes are lamentably common in the earliere censuses. My Great Grandfer was baptized and married as Dainel Monoghan but appears on the 1901 census and every subsequent reference as "Monahan". So your man was lucky (or illiterate) in having the "no h" spelling appear on all his military records!

I lovely medal. I envy you.

A fascinating report on a little known aspect of the Great War! Thank you for sharing it with us.

However, I was struck by this reference: "Ross' Scouts had become notorious and controversial by the end of 1914 and they were disbanded."

Morbid curiousity compels me to ask. What had Ross and his men done or allegedly done to deserve disbandment?

Peter

Onbasi, wear a plain shoulder board.

One band on branch-colour shoulder strap (Cavus).

Two band on branch-colour shoulder strap (Bascavus mu'azini).

Three crosscut bands on branch-colour shoulder strap (Bascavus).

Excuse my ignorance, but are these equivalents - close or exact - to NCO ranks in other armies? For example, is "Obasi" a Private First Class, a Lance/Acting Corporal or a Corporal? And so on.

Peter

My tiny tiny contribution to the discussion is to do with the "Star of David" and Nigeria. When I spent several years there in the '70's, one commonly saw old pennies minted for "West Africa" - Ghana, Nigeria and Sierra Leone, I believe - under the colonial regime. About 1.5 across, each had a hole in the center - for carrying on a thong by people with no pockets, I was told. Around the center hole was a Mogen David-like star . They were very often stiched onto the rims of baskets for sale to tourists.

One of the pennies has graced my key ring these 30 years and more but I've never seen any explanation as to why that symbol was chosen, but surely NOT because of any associations with Judaism. Perhaps, like the swastika in India and in Native America decorative art, it simply represented an eye-pleasingly symmetrical figure. Any theories?

Peter

A tidbit from this morning's newspaper (The Toronto Star, Toronto, Ontario, Canada)

A small pic on the masthead area of the World News section - puffing a story inside - shows an elderly Afghan holding what looks to be a Martini Henry carbine. Impossible to rell whether its an original or a hill made copy, the latter more likely, IMHO, but either waya cool pic of a venerable firearm. I believe they went out of service in Her majesty's Forces in the 1890s and in the ciolonies sometime before 1939. Sentimental; value or just a very poor man?

Peter

The top one looks to be of the type called a "tulwar" ("talwar", "talwaar") in India and was the standard arm of Indian cavalry from the Middle Ages on. The Persian name is "shamshir" and the Persian form has a narrower blade than a tulwar - which this one appears to have. Lovely pieces and many of the older examples have lovely handles and/or inscribed blades.

Cheers Leigh, I'm well chuffed with the photo. Don't suppose the 3rd Ghurka Rifles were in one place long enough during 1914/15 to work out where they could have been captured. When did they arrive in F/F?

Here's a quick and dirty crib from Wikipediaon the 3rd GRs service in WWI.

The 2nd Battalion, as part of the Garwhal Brigade of the 7th (Meerut) Division, was sent to France a few months after the declaration of war in 1914.

2nd Bttn saw action came at La Bass?e & was involved in the defence of Festubert in November and Givenchy in December.

The battalion remained on the Western Front until late 1915.

At the Battle of Neuve Chapelle it took part in fierce fighting. In May it was involved in the battles of Festubert and Aubers. In September the battalion took part in the Battle of Loos which saw the regiment awarded its first Victoria Cross. on 25 September when Rifleman Kulbir Thapa performed with distinction near the village of Fauqissart, becoming the first Gurkha recipient of the award.

The Battle of Loos was the battalion's last action on the Western Front and it left the 7th Division with the rest of the Garhwal Brigade for Egypt in December 1915 after the brigade became an independent unit.

After its arrival in Egypt the 2nd Battalion saw active service against the Ottoman Empire and later took part in the Palestine campaign: first action during the Battles of Gaza & many other actions including the capture of Jerusalem in December. On 19 September 1918, the Megiddo Offensive, began and the battalion was involved in the capture of Sharon. For its part in the campaign the 3rd Gurkhas gained seven Battle Honours and the Theatre Honour "Palestine 1917-18" after such honours were granted to units in the 1920s.

On 10 April 1918 at El Kefr in Egypt, Karanbahadur Rana of the 2nd Battalion became the regiment's second VC recipient .

Elsewhere the 1st Battalion, from 1917, took part in the Mesopotamian Campaign (now Iraq), gaining only a single Battle Honour in the process: Battle of Sharqat (28-30 October 1918).

A Pilot AND a cavalryman! Very very nice.

Canada's new Purple Heart.

Yes, so characterized by newspapermen ('newspaperpersons ?) who can't be bothered to do some basic research. The implication in the story I saw was that Canada is only now 'catching up' to the USA (and I mean no slight on American honours and awards here). In fact, Canada had 'wound stripes' a century ago, even if they've fallen abeyance more recently.

On the other hand, just to play devil's advocate here, how will / should recipients and their families feel about a new "forgot to duck" award? Again, no disrepect to our troops - I have friends in Afghanistan even as I write this - but I've always been slightly bothered by the notion that we reward ba d luck. How do those of you who've seen the elephant feel about this? An honest question, BTW, and not an attempt toi start any quarrels / flame wars.

Peter

(clearly someone who has never served in an army/unit on active service)