peter monahan

Thanks for the information.  It sounds right.

Ard the drawings yours?  They are truly magnificent.  Mind you, the awards are quite visually stunning too. 

Again, thank you for sharing your knowledge!

The original unit whose traditions the current Indian Army perpetuates was the 4th Bombay Grenadiers, created in 1922 during the IA reorganization by the amalgamation of the 101st Grenadiers and the 102nd King Edward's Own Grenadiers.  Multiple battalions were added during WWII and the regiment went to India on Partition, where it has over twenty regular battalions, as is common IA practice these days.  It's 2nd battalion eventually became part of the Guards Brigade.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grenadiers

Terry

Thanks for sharing these lovely displays!  Sadly, the Canadian Army Medical Corps, which became 'Royal C.A.M.C...' in the late 1920s has given up almost a century of tradition and morphed into the Royal Canadian Medical Service'. 

I am part of a living history group which portrays a Great War casualty clearing station: doctor, nursisng sisters and sergeant stretcher beareres/aides.  We had some contact with the current Canaidain Forces medical Services during the centenarry of the Great War and most of them were less than thrilled at the change!

I am taking the liberty, and employing my God-like powers as an moderator, to post this intersting story, sent me by a gent in Australia who is in the process of getting GMIC membership.  Enjoy!

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-11/the-anzacs-who-beat-the-odds-and-escaped-from-greece/100284226

Perhaps the banner marks [unoffically] a regimental or brigade HQ? 

Or, the temporary residence of some over-enthusiatic haggis basher.

My almost completely uninformed view on this - shaped by 40 years of reading US news and collecting/studying militaria - is that postnomials are uncommon in the US.  Not banned, not ordered, just not often used.

One has to distinguish between what the 'rules' say, whoever compiles those, and what the 'average Joe' or average Josephine tends to do.  Brits, and their colonial offspring - Canadian, Indians, etc - have a long history of using postnominals.  OTOH, I suspect that many Americans regard this as an affectation and in truly republican [small 'r'] fashion choose not to use titles or postnominals.

If one looks at Europe, the use of 'Doctor', 'Engineer', 'Lawyer' in place of Mr. or Mrs. or their equivalents is a whole 'nuther story.  My father loved to tell of a German academic, in the 1970s,  who insisted on being addressed as 'Fraulein Doktor Doktor Schmidt'.  Which I suspect would sound pretentious even in Germany these days. 

'When in Rome...' and, pace Audie Murphy, Americans using postnominals seems odd and unusual to me. 

My two dollars and change worth.  Standing by for agreement, correction and chastisement.

Peter

7 hours ago, Bayern said:

Peter I suggests you to visit tartansauthority. com there is a list of tartans weared by British or Commonwealth units . regarding the Murray of Athol tartan its more plausible than the Douglas tartan of the Natal Mounted Rifles

Bayern

I did look at Murray of Athol but don't know enough about either tartans or the SA forces to make a real informed call.  My true concern is that I am unable to find ANY information on the unit under discussion.  This is an affront to my pride and my self-proclaimed expertise in researching.

Claudius

Thanks for a polite and thoughtful response.  What I would have expected from you, sir.

The comparing numbers thing is often tricky, so I won't.  I live just outside the 'GTA' - Greater Toronto Area - which had truly frightening case numbers for months.  Based, IMO, on the fact that too many areas have large numbers of people living in small apartments, many of whom have to take public transit to unsafe work areas, because they don't have the luxury of staying home sand income.  I, on the other hand, live in an area where there is no excuse, again IMO, expect stupidity, for not being vacinated.  And its very personal because my wife works in a school.  With at least one person who 'doesn't believe in' vaccines.

When I do travel - spring and fall - to Great War Association events in PA, our standard rule is 'No politics, no religion and no guns!'  So I understand and applaud your stance in refusing to take sides.  And I'm very envious!  Travel safely, be well and... find treasures!

Claudius

You had me at 'Richards Bay, Kwa-Zulu-Natal'.  But you lost me again at 'Milwaukee'.

In the goood old days - 2019 and before - I attended a semi-annual event in Pennsylvania.  An event in November, 2021 is possible, but when I look at posts to the group who sponsors it, I see a truly frightening number of posts from people who 'don't believe in' Covid, or vaxxing, or masks, or all of these.

I and my Canadian fellow border crossers are really wrestling with this one, particulary given the fact that, lets face it, our hobby/hobbies are more likely to attract Trump supporters than Bernie Saun ders supporters, with all that that implies.  I wish you all the best, and hope that you have a healthy, happy visit!  

Peter

Not my area.  What is 'SOS', please?

Somebody or bodies, I think in the UK, are no producing quite an array of  British campaign medals as reproduction - not meant to decieve - items for collectors and, I suspect, rteenactors who can't afford or won't wear originals. 

I make no judgement here on the wearing of historic campaign medals on historic uniforms but, for example, some of the people I know who represent Great War British regiments in reenacting will wear the ribbons of the Boer War medals, as most of us are in the age bracket to have 'reupped' in 1914.

For those with an interest in British Imperial history, of whom there seem to be more than a few, buying something like this for display purpases seems quite logical.

My tuppence and change worth.

Peter

Possibly Murray of Tullibardine, which is a red tartan, as this source says the Transvaal Scottish Regiment did.  https://www.dcdalgliesh.co.uk/regimental.

I am finding it almost impossible, here in Canada, to find ANY references to the Natal Scottish regiment.  Odd!

Peter

On 09/07/2021 at 15:20, artemii said:

English isn't my native language, can you please explain what do you mean by: "I believe they may have been in my possession"? Can you also please state what other items that are far more interesting and valuable do you have? What can be more valuable than attributed award group of officially inscribed awards? Of cuorse my question refers to military awards as this is the topic of this thread?

Artemii 'I believe they may have been in my possession' implies that the writer DID have them at one point but subsequently lost, gave away or sold them and so does not have them now.  Which only makes sense.

As to what might be more valuable... ask any non-collector of medals and the answer might be anything from a photo of the original owner of the medals to letters and diaries to... almost anything related to the person.  

I hope this helps and, that if you are inclined to contact A. R. Kay that you have an enjoyable exchange. 

Peter

Lovely!  Thanks for this.

Impressive, Graham!  It certainly wouyldn't have occurred to me to look in the USA for the maker/issuer.

Hello Peron

I'm having trouble reading the card - not your fault! - but I can give you some info. and makes some guesses.  

John George Christopher Siems WAS a Lt in the London Regiment and was entitled to a BWM and VM.  Record shown below.

It looks as if he had to apply for the medals because he was living in Barcelona.  My guess woud be that they were originally sent to the address where he said he planned to live, probably in England, and were returned because he had moved with no forwarding address.  This was not that uncommon and many medals were not sent out until 1920, 2'1 or '22, so people had moved.

I hope that helps a bit.

Peter

Lovely!  Thanks for sharing the photos. 

An Obsolete award - first created in 1944: 

From a 1944 New Zealand Journal:-

LEGION LONG SERVICE AND EFFICIENCY MEDAL (LSEM)

NZHQ receives a cable from England advising that the manufacture and export of medals is prohibitive. The New Zealand Command then decides to strike its own Legion Service Medal recognising Long Service and Efficiency… The LSEM when struck in Sterling Silver is a credit to New Zealand craftsmanship and is attached to a deep red ribbon. This colour was not chosen, but rather all that is available during the war years. The name of the recipient is engraved on the medal with the prefix Frontiersman - no other rank is stated.

Lots on information here on the NZ site of the Legion, to my surprise.  I have always understood that their heyday was 1900 to the 1920s, but apparently they're still out there.  At least, they talk about recruiting and the 1921 AGM.

http://frontiersmen.homestead.com/hq.html

My late father-in-law was a Canadian, working for Marconi as a radio oeprator, on 'tramp' steamers.  He had decided to rerunt to Canada after three years overseas and was in Red Sea when war was declared in 1939.  Went round the Cape - with a deck cargo of live sheep for rations - and was torpedoed half a day out of Liverpool.  He and the Captain were the last of the ship and he lost everthying but the c,lothes he stood up in.

Welcome to the GMIC and the African forum!  Always glad to have more folks interested in thsi under studied, under valued field!

That is a very interesting fastening system.  More usually found on cap badges and such, rather than the long prongs meant to go into thread loops or a pin fastening.

You mention that there are documents identifying the owner.  I'm curious as to how this came onto the market.  No slur implied at all, but many of the European and British honours and awards now specifcally request that the item be returned to the awarding authority on the death of the recipient.  Any info. gratefully received.

Thanks for sharing this lovely item!

Great drawing!  Thanks for sharing.  

My only comment on Karl Marx is that I loved the scene in 'SS-GB' where the German and Soviet delegations at his tomb meet the bomb set by the British Resistance.  One of my favourite bits in one of my favourite alternate history books.

I'm just researching a bunch of WWI medals for the Canadian WQar Museum and there are some interesting 'ages'.  A couple who claimed to be younger , and 'single' to get in early in the war and one chap who actually got a notarized letter from his father, 12 minths after joining, saying 'Yes, this is my son, I delivered him when he was born and he IS 18!'  Not sure whether Dad lied or not.

On 14/05/2021 at 12:32, paul wood said:

Sepoy Shaiyadh? 2nd Punjab infy.

 

 

I agree that this is a very plausible naming. 

 

I can't begin to see the number, but unlike most armies, the IA did issue single and double digit serial numbers.  Usually to senior  Native Officers, I'll admit.  I once owned a group - 1895 to 1918 to a cavalry Rissaldar whose father had been '1' in the regiment when it was raised in the 1860s.  And I', fairly certain I've seen 2 digit serials to Other Ranks and Followers.  So, concievably he was "9 Sepoy Shaiyadh..." 

 

The other possibility, which also needs to be considered with any medal named in India is 'error in naming'.  The workers at the Calcutta Mint apparently came with various degrees of literacy and familiarity with the 'Roman' alphabet, and it's not uncommon to see medals where the only way to make sense of the naming is to conclude that the person doing the naming either ommited letters/numbers or misread the roll from which he was working. Sorry, I know that's not much help, but... part of the wonder and mystery of collecting I.G.S. Medals!

You're correct that ther is not a lot of information out there.  However,  in WWI there was a 'SA Scottish Battalion'  made up of men from several 'Scottish' units - Transvaal Scots and Cape Town Highlanders. 

I imagine - only a guess - that the Natal Scottish were militia/territorials who perhaps supplied drafts of men to one of the war time battalions but didn't exist as an actual active unit per se.  There were three battalions of the Transvaal Scottish mobilized and in action with the 1st and 2nd SA Divisions, so perhaps part of one battlion clung to the 'Natal Scottish' distinction?  As I say, guessing here.

Peter