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Odin Mk 3

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About Odin Mk 3

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    Regular Member

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  • Gender
    Male
  • Location
    Wessex
  • Interests
    Collecting British Medals. Author of book 'The Metropolitan Police, The Men And Their Medals'

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  1. Hello Odin,

    Is the reprinted book 'The Metropolitan Police, The Men and Their Medals' still available? If so I would like to purchase one!

    Kind regards

    David dpk@iinet.net.au

    1. Odin Mk 3

      Odin Mk 3

      Hello David

      The book is still available but I see you live in Australia - I have just checked the cost of postage and other than sea mail which takes ages, the cost is around £19 for untracked postage as it is a heavy book and weighs over 1.7 kg when packed.  This almost doubles the price of the book which is now £22.  Also I'm not sure if they would hit you with customs duty  as well.  By comparison the cost to send it second class within the UK is just £3.

      Because the postage for overseas mail has gone up so much I haven't sold any abroad for several years. 

      I have tried to convert it to an e-book but failed I'm afraid.  I do have it in pdf format which I can e-mail out but I am a bit wary of doing that as it is possible to start a print run from that.  I have sent one copy to Canada on the understanding it was for the personal use of the recipient only.

      It is annoying as I have about sixty copies of the book and most of the interest I seem to get now comes from abroad!

      Given the above do you have any thoughts on what you want to do

      Regards

      J Kemp

       

  2. The Service Sheets are available from the National Archives for Warrant Numbers 74201 to 97500 - that covers the period Jan 1889 to Nov 1909 (files MEOP 4/361 to MEPO 4/477). I have not found any equivalent records to cover men who joined before (ie up to Number 74200). There must also be some sheets for men after 97500 but again they are not available either at the National Archives or through the Met Police Heritage Centre at Earls Court. These records can be downloaded for free but as there are 117 files in total that will take you ages to do, even with high speed internet. I have them linked to a spreadsheet with hyperlinks so I can fairly quickly find a particular record (see below) Post 1930 they introduced a new system the Central Record System (CRS) and a few officers who earned the 1911 medal were still serving also have a CRS card. These are available through the Police Heritage Centre for a small fee and are better as they also show Commendations and Disciplinary Offences. I have quite a few police medals but only six of these recipients have a CRS card and all but one have just a single 1911 Coronation Medal (the other man rose to the rank of Supt and served much longer).
  3. Attached are his service sheets from the MEPO 4 series of files at the National Archives They don't tell you much about his police career but do give his background before he joined Just a little more information I have found on Bell When he joined his Divisional Number was 458D (and would have been his collar number). By the time he retired it had changed to 324D So if you ever find a photo of an officer with the three medals wearing the number 324D it could be a retirement photo of your man
  4. Your man is PC Ernest Fox He joined the Met 17/06/1867 and was pensioned 29/08/1892 serving as a PC in A Div - his Warrant Number was 48564 He re-joined as a Pensioner for the 1897 Jubilee and is shown in the Police Orders as CO Div (Scotland Yard) but actually served in M Div (Southwark) - he had a new Warrant Number 82409 (this earned him the 1897 bar). The Attestation Register shows he was originally assigned to H Div (Whitechapel) before he went to M Div. He re-joined again for the 1902 Coronation and served with D Div with a new number 1811 (this earned him the 1902 Medal). So you have his entire Police Medal entitlement, earned over three separate stints in the police. Men who re-joined as Pensioners normally only did a few days duty just before the royal event and then left again, earning a medal or bar.
  5. The Commissioner's Office was not just CID - for example the Post Office Directory for 1895 shows three separate parts Executive and Statistical Dept (CO Ex) Public Carriage Dept and Lost Property Dept Criminal Investigation Dept By 1911 the second one is shown as Public Carriage Branch (CO PCB) - this was responsible for licencing Hackney Carriages - Taxis So there were quite a few uniform officers in CO. Also there were civilians employed in the Commissioner's Office and some of these also received the Police Jubilee / Coronation Medals. Initially it was only the more senior staff but the 1902 and 1911 medals were also awarded to some lower grade staff. There were sub divisions within the CID section but I can't tell you exactly what they all were but later they did have the CO (SB). Not really my best subject I'm afraid but definitely CO Div was not all detectives
  6. There used to be an on-line database of extracts from the Police Orders and I sorted the above info from that source over ten years ago; unfortunately there is no longer direct access to the whole database. The same data can be gleaned directly from the actual Police Orders and copies are held by several bodies including Kew BUT that would be like looking for a needle in a haystack. No easy answer I'm afraid.
  7. Officers who re-joined as War Reserve officers appear to have kept their old rank. Where they served was I suspect a function of where they were living post retirement. Their postings were shown in the Police Orders. Here is an example for Insp Walter Cursons who retired from L Div but had previously served in W Div (and was living in Mitcham in 1939). Note this officer re-joined (like many others) before the war had even started. He resigned just before three year services in WWII, just failing to qualify for a Defence Medal for his WWII service. RP I think means Reserve Police (not Police Reserve!) 21/06/1929 92997 W CURSONS Insp C To W 01/01/1932 92997 W CURSONS Insp W To L 28/08/1933 92997 W CURSONS Insp L PENSIONED 31/08/1939 92997 W CURSONS Insp W REJOINED RP 31/07/1942 92997 W CURSONS Insp W RESIGNED
  8. No I'm afraid you have got the wrong idea on the Reserve. From 1831 Specials Constables could be empowered to assist with policing major civil disturbances - Chartist Demonstrations, Fenian Terror Campaigns etc - but these men were called up for one offs and there was no standing Met Special force until WWI. The Reserve is a totally different case. When the Met was set up each Section Sergeant had nine Constables. Eight were allocated to beats and the ninth man was the Reserve Officer. This system evolved and consulting the Law Directories for 1880s onwards shows that in each Division there were a number of Inspectors and one was designated as the Reserve Inspector. He commanded a group of men designated as the Reserve who, unlike their fellow uniform officers, did not patrol beats. These men were effectively held as a mobile reserve to deal with any emergencies etc that arose and they were spread around the sub-divisions. Reserve PSs / PCs had normal collar numbers with an addition R to show they were part of the Reserve. I have one Pay List for April 1891 for Y Division (this was one of the larger Divisions) - the Pay List actually shows the members of their Reserve which consisted of the following: Kentish Town Sub Division - I Inspector, I Sergeant, 12 Constables Somers Town Sub Division - 1 Sergeant, 9 Constables Upper Holloway Sub Division - 1 Sergeant, 9 Constables Caledonian Road Sub Division - 1 Sergeant, 9 Constables Holloway Sub Division - 1 Sergeant, 7 Constables Hornsey Sub Division - 1 Sergeant, 4 Constables Wood Green Sub Division - 4 Constables Enfield Sub Division - 5 Constables Total: 1 Inspector, 6 Sergeants, 59 Constables The total for Y Div in 1887 was 46 Sergeants and 598 Constables (excluding 5 CID PS/PCs) so this shows nearly 10% of the Division were in the reserve I should add that officers when they first joined didn't go into the Reserve but were selected later in their careers, usually because they were well thought off
  9. The terms Permitted to Resign / Resignation Permitted were used up until October 1920. From then on the wording was changed to Required to Resign which is probably a better definition of what really happened. It you look at the Discharge Register MEPO 4/346 it shows exactly when the wording was changed. Certificates of Conduct were not given to officers who were Resignation Permitted / Required to Resign.
  10. Very nice groups Mike For the last group, on his police papers, the man's name is given as Charles Shaxon Warrant No 87804 Can you please tell me what is the naming on the rim of Insp Thomas Worth's first medal (which I assume is an 1887 medal - he retired in 1896 and didn't come back as a pensioner for 1897). His 1902 medal was earned as a pensioner who re-joined. By the way he was a Sub Divisional Inspector when he retired (between Insp and Ch Insp).
  11. If you think about it, such a group would be highly unlikely - The Crimea War finished in Mar 1856 and the Jubilee was in June 1887 - 31 years later. Someone ex-Army joining the Police post the Crimea War would already be older than the normal new Police entrant. If they tried to join some years after the end of the War they would probably have been deemed too old for a new recruit. Normal Met service to retirement appears to be either 25 or 30 years. So the chances of an older entrant doing possibly in excess of 30 years is quite small.
  12. I see that a company called Empire Medals is advertising miniatures for the GSM 2008. The five bars are: Arabian Peninsula, Eastern Africa, Northern Africa, Western Africa and Southern Asia. https://www.empiremedals.com/collections/miniature-gsm-2008/gsm-2008?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=New%202008%20GSM%20in%20miniature&utm_content=New%202008%20GSM%20in%20miniature+CID_6ad2fbd88ddf2f59888b840211358c50&utm_source=Campaign%20Monitor&utm_term=View%20All%202008%20GSMs%20HERE
  13. I haven't found any medals named in Welsh yet but today I was in a small local village (in deepest Wiltshire) and saw a Royal Mail van with Post Brenhinol on the side (Welsh for Royal Mail). The postman explained they had just had two brand new vans consigned to their area from Wales and these hadn't been repainted. Also in the past when buying stamps at my local Post Office I have on several occasions been given stamps that were Welsh definitive issues and not standard UK stamps. Given all this infiltration by stealth I won't be surprised if someone starts campaigning for naming to be in the first language of the recipient (be it Welsh, Gaelic, Manx, Urdu, Hindi etc).
  14. The Met Dockyard Officers have the same records as Met Officers working in London. So men with Warrant Numbers between 74201 and 97500 will have service sheets in the MEPO 4 series (4/361 - 4/477). Also those who served through to get pensions will have pension papers which give a very brief career summary. Some men joined and were sent straight to Dockyard Divisions but many appear to have served in London first before being appointed to a dockyard later in their careers. In fact when men attested they swore oaths and these covered the London Divisions, the Royal Palaces and the Dockyard / Military Divisions (1st Div was primarily Woolwich Arsenal). Originally new recruits only swore the oaths that were relevant to their first posting London/Royal Palaces or Dockyards. So if you look at the rear of the older attestation registers you will see men re-attested when they were moved to Dockyard Division. This is useful if you don't have a service sheet and the man didn't stay long enough for a pension as it gives you the rough date when they moved to the dockyards. Later new recruits swore all three oaths together on joining so there was no need for re-attestation. I have noticed a number of men who came from places like Portsmouth, Plymouth and Pembroke who joined the Met, possibly hoping to get appointed to their home town. Often this didn't happen but I have some medals where(after several moves) the men finally made it back home - one example is Station Sergt Charles Palmer (58711) who was born just across the border in Cornwall. He started in W Div in 1875 and moved around quite a bit before going to 1st Div then 4th Div and finally 3rd Div (Devonport) in 1891. Regarding your query on training - the role in the dockyards was different to the policing in London so I suspect elements of training were done locally - remember the dockyards also had fire brigade and water police roles - so they would have needed to cover this at the dockyard.
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