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Odin Mk 3

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About Odin Mk 3

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    Collecting British Medals. Author of book 'The Metropolitan Police, The Men And Their Medals'

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  1. Your man is PC Ernest Fox He joined the Met 17/06/1867 and was pensioned 29/08/1892 serving as a PC in A Div - his Warrant Number was 48564 He re-joined as a Pensioner for the 1897 Jubilee and is shown in the Police Orders as CO Div (Scotland Yard) but actually served in M Div (Southwark) - he had a new Warrant Number 82409 (this earned him the 1897 bar). The Attestation Register shows he was originally assigned to H Div (Whitechapel) before he went to M Div. He re-joined again for the 1902 Coronation and served with D Div with a new number 1811 (this earned him the 1902 Medal). So you have his entire Police Medal entitlement, earned over three separate stints in the police. Men who re-joined as Pensioners normally only did a few days duty just before the royal event and then left again, earning a medal or bar.
  2. The Commissioner's Office was not just CID - for example the Post Office Directory for 1895 shows three separate parts Executive and Statistical Dept (CO Ex) Public Carriage Dept and Lost Property Dept Criminal Investigation Dept By 1911 the second one is shown as Public Carriage Branch (CO PCB) - this was responsible for licencing Hackney Carriages - Taxis So there were quite a few uniform officers in CO. Also there were civilians employed in the Commissioner's Office and some of these also received the Police Jubilee / Coronation Medals. Initially it was only the more senior staff but the 1902 and 1911 medals were also awarded to some lower grade staff. There were sub divisions within the CID section but I can't tell you exactly what they all were but later they did have the CO (SB). Not really my best subject I'm afraid but definitely CO Div was not all detectives
  3. There used to be an on-line database of extracts from the Police Orders and I sorted the above info from that source over ten years ago; unfortunately there is no longer direct access to the whole database. The same data can be gleaned directly from the actual Police Orders and copies are held by several bodies including Kew BUT that would be like looking for a needle in a haystack. No easy answer I'm afraid.
  4. Officers who re-joined as War Reserve officers appear to have kept their old rank. Where they served was I suspect a function of where they were living post retirement. Their postings were shown in the Police Orders. Here is an example for Insp Walter Cursons who retired from L Div but had previously served in W Div (and was living in Mitcham in 1939). Note this officer re-joined (like many others) before the war had even started. He resigned just before three year services in WWII, just failing to qualify for a Defence Medal for his WWII service. RP I think means Reserve Police (not Police Reserve!) 21/06/1929 92997 W CURSONS Insp C To W 01/01/1932 92997 W CURSONS Insp W To L 28/08/1933 92997 W CURSONS Insp L PENSIONED 31/08/1939 92997 W CURSONS Insp W REJOINED RP 31/07/1942 92997 W CURSONS Insp W RESIGNED
  5. No I'm afraid you have got the wrong idea on the Reserve. From 1831 Specials Constables could be empowered to assist with policing major civil disturbances - Chartist Demonstrations, Fenian Terror Campaigns etc - but these men were called up for one offs and there was no standing Met Special force until WWI. The Reserve is a totally different case. When the Met was set up each Section Sergeant had nine Constables. Eight were allocated to beats and the ninth man was the Reserve Officer. This system evolved and consulting the Law Directories for 1880s onwards shows that in each Division there were a number of Inspectors and one was designated as the Reserve Inspector. He commanded a group of men designated as the Reserve who, unlike their fellow uniform officers, did not patrol beats. These men were effectively held as a mobile reserve to deal with any emergencies etc that arose and they were spread around the sub-divisions. Reserve PSs / PCs had normal collar numbers with an addition R to show they were part of the Reserve. I have one Pay List for April 1891 for Y Division (this was one of the larger Divisions) - the Pay List actually shows the members of their Reserve which consisted of the following: Kentish Town Sub Division - I Inspector, I Sergeant, 12 Constables Somers Town Sub Division - 1 Sergeant, 9 Constables Upper Holloway Sub Division - 1 Sergeant, 9 Constables Caledonian Road Sub Division - 1 Sergeant, 9 Constables Holloway Sub Division - 1 Sergeant, 7 Constables Hornsey Sub Division - 1 Sergeant, 4 Constables Wood Green Sub Division - 4 Constables Enfield Sub Division - 5 Constables Total: 1 Inspector, 6 Sergeants, 59 Constables The total for Y Div in 1887 was 46 Sergeants and 598 Constables (excluding 5 CID PS/PCs) so this shows nearly 10% of the Division were in the reserve I should add that officers when they first joined didn't go into the Reserve but were selected later in their careers, usually because they were well thought off
  6. The terms Permitted to Resign / Resignation Permitted were used up until October 1920. From then on the wording was changed to Required to Resign which is probably a better definition of what really happened. It you look at the Discharge Register MEPO 4/346 it shows exactly when the wording was changed. Certificates of Conduct were not given to officers who were Resignation Permitted / Required to Resign.
  7. Very nice groups Mike For the last group, on his police papers, the man's name is given as Charles Shaxon Warrant No 87804 Can you please tell me what is the naming on the rim of Insp Thomas Worth's first medal (which I assume is an 1887 medal - he retired in 1896 and didn't come back as a pensioner for 1897). His 1902 medal was earned as a pensioner who re-joined. By the way he was a Sub Divisional Inspector when he retired (between Insp and Ch Insp).
  8. If you think about it, such a group would be highly unlikely - The Crimea War finished in Mar 1856 and the Jubilee was in June 1887 - 31 years later. Someone ex-Army joining the Police post the Crimea War would already be older than the normal new Police entrant. If they tried to join some years after the end of the War they would probably have been deemed too old for a new recruit. Normal Met service to retirement appears to be either 25 or 30 years. So the chances of an older entrant doing possibly in excess of 30 years is quite small.
  9. I see that a company called Empire Medals is advertising miniatures for the GSM 2008. The five bars are: Arabian Peninsula, Eastern Africa, Northern Africa, Western Africa and Southern Asia. https://www.empiremedals.com/collections/miniature-gsm-2008/gsm-2008?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=New%202008%20GSM%20in%20miniature&utm_content=New%202008%20GSM%20in%20miniature+CID_6ad2fbd88ddf2f59888b840211358c50&utm_source=Campaign%20Monitor&utm_term=View%20All%202008%20GSMs%20HERE
  10. I haven't found any medals named in Welsh yet but today I was in a small local village (in deepest Wiltshire) and saw a Royal Mail van with Post Brenhinol on the side (Welsh for Royal Mail). The postman explained they had just had two brand new vans consigned to their area from Wales and these hadn't been repainted. Also in the past when buying stamps at my local Post Office I have on several occasions been given stamps that were Welsh definitive issues and not standard UK stamps. Given all this infiltration by stealth I won't be surprised if someone starts campaigning for naming to be in the first language of the recipient (be it Welsh, Gaelic, Manx, Urdu, Hindi etc).
  11. The Met Dockyard Officers have the same records as Met Officers working in London. So men with Warrant Numbers between 74201 and 97500 will have service sheets in the MEPO 4 series (4/361 - 4/477). Also those who served through to get pensions will have pension papers which give a very brief career summary. Some men joined and were sent straight to Dockyard Divisions but many appear to have served in London first before being appointed to a dockyard later in their careers. In fact when men attested they swore oaths and these covered the London Divisions, the Royal Palaces and the Dockyard / Military Divisions (1st Div was primarily Woolwich Arsenal). Originally new recruits only swore the oaths that were relevant to their first posting London/Royal Palaces or Dockyards. So if you look at the rear of the older attestation registers you will see men re-attested when they were moved to Dockyard Division. This is useful if you don't have a service sheet and the man didn't stay long enough for a pension as it gives you the rough date when they moved to the dockyards. Later new recruits swore all three oaths together on joining so there was no need for re-attestation. I have noticed a number of men who came from places like Portsmouth, Plymouth and Pembroke who joined the Met, possibly hoping to get appointed to their home town. Often this didn't happen but I have some medals where(after several moves) the men finally made it back home - one example is Station Sergt Charles Palmer (58711) who was born just across the border in Cornwall. He started in W Div in 1875 and moved around quite a bit before going to 1st Div then 4th Div and finally 3rd Div (Devonport) in 1891. Regarding your query on training - the role in the dockyards was different to the policing in London so I suspect elements of training were done locally - remember the dockyards also had fire brigade and water police roles - so they would have needed to cover this at the dockyard.
  12. I have the medal to PC Phasey which cost me £55 a few years ago (and I thought that was expensive then). I have had some more books printed now if anyone is interested but I regret I will only post to UK addresses as overseas postage is now sadly astronomical - airmail to Australia more than doubles the price of the book.
  13. Last Batch (R - Z) 92901 Charles Tanner PC K, 98284 William Tanner PC N, 99551 Bertie Taylor PC M, 89222 William Taylor PC B, 100111 William Taylor PC J 97646 Alfred Thomas PC F, 99315 Hamilton Thomson PC B, 97764 George Thornley PC J, 99135 Robert Thurston PC N, 98281 Charles Timblick PC D 98670 Cyril Timms PC K, 93671 William Tinkler PC B, 90959 George Tizzard PC TA, 99458 John Tizzard PC TA, 99722 Charles Tombs PC B 99413 Harry Tong PC T, 98370 Henry Tralau PC E, 96169 Arthur Treers PC N, 97688 William Trinder PC S, 96706 Albert Tunbridge PC X 98575 John Turnbull PC L, 97342 Alfred Turvey PC X, 97391 William Tustin PC D, 93555 George Twilley PS S, 99190 Alfred Usher PC X 94908 Harry Venn PC N, 95305 Obadiah Waldock PC B, 92404 Edward Walkling PC K, 93257 Henry Walsh PC N, 100238 John Walsh PC D 96048 Thomas Walters PC W, 92930 Alfred Walton PC N, 91455 Frank Ward PC S, 90789 William Ward PC N, 100179 Leonard Wardman PC E 95419 Archibald Warner PC B, 90765 Richard Warnes PC K, 100007 Reginald Warren PC J, 91298 John Watling PS K, 93711 Abraham Watson PC E 97834 Thomas Watson PC N, 89107 Jack Webb PC H, 100277 Owen Wells PC M, 96382 Arthur West PC N, 95816 Thomas Weston PC K 95782 Arthur Weymouth PC R, 97609 Leonard White PC J, 93645 Thomas Whitehead PC D, 98380 Edward Wiggins PC X, 96266 George Williams PC N 95762 James Wilson PC F, 99900 George Wilson PC P, 98861 Edward Wiseman PC M, 89739 Wilson Wood PC K, 96963 Albert Wooding PC B 99462 Bernard Woolacott PC F, 98895 Henry Woolley PC N, 92335 Albert Wragg PC K, 96616 Albert Wright PC T, 99154 Sidney Wright PC M 98313 George Yapp PC L, 94772 Richard Yates PS N, 98262 Ernest Yorke PC K
  14. Next batch (N - S) 90358 Henry Neighbour PS J, 98933 Charles Newman PC G, 91406 George Newson PC N, 98386 Denis Nolan PC N, 97523 Patrick Nolan PC B 98490 Willie Norman PC G, 96942 Edward Norris PC X, 94147 William Norris PS Y, 97597 Edgar Northeast PC J, 94762 Herbert Norton PC X 96732 David Nott PC N, 98405 Paul Nunn PC N, 91688 Charles O'Connell PS J, 90103 James O'Hara PC T, 97793 Charles Oliver PC F 93295 Leonard Olley PC K, 99240 Albert Orchard PC G, 97092 John Page PC N, 92316 Nelson Page PC J, 97973 Francis Painter PC K 94814 Ernest Pallant PC J, 98501 Ernest Pamby PC K, 94441 Richard Parish PC N, 92119 Peter Parker PC F, 95327 Albert Parker PC N 92396 Frederick Parrott PC B, 99843 Frank Parry PC B, 89354 Albert Partt PC Y, 99869 Walter Patten PCR, 92235 George Paul PC D 96503 Thomas Pauling PC L, 97256 George Payne PC J, 99296 Stewart Pearce PC E, 95620 Arthur Pearce PC N, 92699 Arthur Pearce PS V 99297 Thomas Peel PC B, 91252 Charles Penn PC G, 95161 William Petley PC J, 90862 William Phasey PC R, 97598 Edward Pickering PC M 97969 Frank Pile PC K, 99090 John Povey PC F, 97599 Henry Powell PC J, 100273 Richard Powell PC L, 99449 Richard Pratchett PC Y 98712 James Price PC W, 96483 John Prideaux PC E, 95661 Hubert Proudman PC K, 97721 Charles Puffett PC K, 93151 Henry Puttick PC F 94953 Arthur Quail PC B, 97537 Ernest Quant PC D, 96251 James Ragan PC J, 93859 James Rapley PC X, 91126 William Rees PC X 90667 Arthur Rendle PC N, 95171 Fred Revel PC N, 92160 William Reynolds PC K, 90518 John Rich PC W, 95037 Arthur Richards PC G 94460 Benjamin Richardson PC X, 94085 Charles Richardson PC TA, 97832 Frederick Richardson PC N, 95172 John Ricketts PC N, 96838 Alfred Ridgewell PC K 94209 Charles Robinson PC X, 99217 Charles Rockliffe PC J, 97873 George Roehrig PC T, 95997 Charles Rogers PC K, 98458 Thomas Rolfe PC G 99991 George Ronaldson PC E, 99814 Frank Rumbelow PC N, 99024 Arthur Russell PC B, 98950 James Russell PC J, 94705 Margerson Rutterford PC S 99993 George Ryder PC X, 97327 Augustus Sanders PC H, 90270 William Sansum PS G, 100302 Henry Sawkins PC B, 91212 David Sawyer PC X 92371 William Saxby PC X, 96322 Jacob Schummacher PC S, 99720 Arthur Scott PC B, 92266 Thomas Scott PC B, 91936 George Sealey PC G 94954 Edmond Searing PC E, 100236 Albert Searles PC G, 91142 Alexander Seekings PC N, 97479 Samuel Setchell PC V, 96680 Spencer Sharpe PC D 92569 Harry Sherrod PC D, 95664 Charlie Sherwood PC F, 99052 James Sim PC N, 98937 Charles Sim PC J, 93707 Henry Simm PC J 95936 Joe Simmonds PC N, 90863 Harry Slaymaker PC D, 99054 James Small PC N, 99958 Hubert Smart PC F, 89989 Bertie Smith PC G 93212 Ernest Smith PC N, 96933 George Smith PC W, 92003 James Smith PC E, 95240 James Smith PC H, 95067 Alfred Smith PC D 92240 Ernest Smith PC B, 99896 Thomas Smith PC W, 95155 George Smithers PC K, 93869 William Smithers PC B, 95752 William Smyth PC F 95203 Arthur South PC B, 94864 George Spring PC X, 98517 Joseph Stacey PC K, 92898 Charles Stanley PC T, 89696 Reuben Starling PC X 95727 Archibald Stephens PC F, 99778 Bertie Stephens PC J, 95330 George Stephenson PC B, 95715 Walter Stevens PC F, 90890 Albert Stevenson PC B 100226 Ernest Stiles PC T, 98890 Charles Stirton PC K, 90843 George Stokes PC G, 92091 Albert Stoneham PC X, 92680 Stephen Stoner PC F 96873 James Stoodley PC V, 90737 Ernest Storer PC N, 91665 Edward Storey PC E, 98598 Herbert Sturdy PC N, 92241 Andrew Sullivan PC Y 100133 William Swan PC X