M18 cut out helmet I just bought.

[Hun Helmet]

This was a hard fought battle. Worked 3 hours over time last night, came home got three hours of sleep, forced myself to get up and bid at the last minute. Any fake bells going off?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...N%3AIT&rd=1

Mike

[Daniel Murphy]

Gee, you're welcome. Do you think that after helping you for weeks, I would tell you to buy a fake? Glad you got it anyway.

Dan Murphy

Edited July 29, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[Hun Helmet]

Course not Dan! I am sure it's a good one. You were sure. But I am sure, or almost sure someone will say it's bad LOL That would be a given on MCF but I can't post it there.

Looking for a consensus before I send payment. I'd gladly eat bad feed back if it was a bad helmet after all and someone pointed out something we missed.

Now the trick is getting it to me with out any thefts or hankey pankey by the seller. Hope it all goes smooth. That's a LOT of money

Mike

[Hun Helmet]

Well as predicted it's starting, the fake calls LOL

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...d=1#post1514199

For the record I think the poster is way off base and irrational. I have no idea what motivates people to flap their jaw in such manner.

[Daniel Murphy]

Looking for a consensus before I send payment. I'd gladly eat bad feed back if it was a bad helmet after all and someone pointed out something we missed.

That helmet being unit marked to G.G.R. 1 is unique as far as I am concerned. Don't hesitate now, get that payment out. I have had my collecting mentor (and best friend) help me out years ago and tell me to get off my butt and buy an item. I have never regretted it and neither will you. An original cut out helmet unit marked to a Garde regiment, I mean Wow, this would be a major piece for anyones collection.

Course not Dan! I am sure it's a good one. You were sure.

Oh, don't worry about what I said above, that was just the Jewish mentor guilt routine. Some people believe anything found on ebay cannot be real, plain and simple. The thing about ebay is, you have to sort out the 5% of good stuff from the other 95% junk. When you learn how to do that, you are good to go. As far as price, a little high. But there is that old saying "The high price will be forgotten long before the joy of high quality" You've already got a few knowledgable people (here and elsewhere) saying it is real, so I see no problem. There are always a few that will poo poo anything and everything. But I will tell you one thing, I would love to have that helmet in my collection. Anytime you don't want it anymore let me know. Now, get it paid for, get it in your hot little hands and get us some great pictures of it on this thread. Thats an order soldier.

Dan Murphy

[Hun Helmet]

haha you bet. I pay monday and he ships next day.

Check out this one here. A guards helmet. I kept quiet about this one too. Did not bid but had a gut feeling it was good.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...A%3AIT&rd=1

If it did not have that bullet hole I might have won it. Then I'd be sunk on the cut out.

Mike

[Daniel Murphy]

Here are some of the auction photos before they disappear.

[Daniel Murphy]

[Daniel Murphy]

[Daniel Murphy]

Unit mark.

[Hun Helmet]

I got the helmet today! Two things bother me about it. One when I hold the helmet up by one finger in the center to it's balanced in the air and knock on it the sound is dead. When I do this with my BF64 it rings a bit like a bell.

Two, I don't see the normal stretch or pressing marks I normally see on M16's.

The cut out has a cast metal feel although I am sure it was pressed. This could be from the coating of something that was applied. The feel of the helmet is a little different then most of my others. Same weight it seems but a different feel to it.

The two issues made me nervous enough that I am having Ken at German helmets inc check it out. I should get word back after work tonight.

mike

[Hun Helmet]

Also..... Look at the inside, it seems to me that this helmet had to be re finished post war and that a re finish during WWII as was suspected would show a lot more wear and paint degrading ten it does. In the ebay photos the inside looked rust brown and un finished.

I can return the helmet for refund but won't if the shell is at least good.

Mike

[Kev in Deva]

Also..... Look at the inside, it seems to me that this helmet had to be re finished post war and that a re finish during WWII as was suspected would show a lot more wear and paint degrading ten it does. In the ebay photos the inside looked rust brown and un finished.

I can return the helmet for refund but won't if the shell is at least good.

Mike

Hallo Mike,

do you think it was in the ground for a while, seems to be considerable pitting to my inexperienced eyes

Kevin in Deva

[Hun Helmet]

Hallo Mike,

do you think it was in the ground for a while, seems to be considerable pitting to my inexperienced eyes

Kevin in Deva

I don't think it was in the ground for any amount of time. Just kept someplace in less then ideal conditions.

Mike

[Daniel Murphy]

It would appear that it sat level and upside down for a long time. Perhaps in a leaky barn where water accumulated in it or being used as a planter in a vets home. Yes they did this. There is a rust line level with the vents. When the water reached that level it would leak out, but below that it would just sit there creating some heavier rust. I still don't believe it was refinished. Sitting upside down in a leaky barn would do this to the inside but the outside paint would not be affected much since the water that leaked out would dry fairly quickly.

Dan Murphy

[Hun Helmet]

It would appear that it sat level and upside down for a long time. Perhaps in a leaky barn where water accumulated in it or being used as a planter in a vets home. Yes they did this. There is a rust line level with the vents. When the water reached that level it would leak out, but below that it would just sit there creating some heavier rust. I still don't believe it was refinished. Sitting upside down in a leaky barn would do this to the inside but the outside paint would not be affected much since the water that leaked out would dry fairly quickly.

Dan Murphy

Dan,

The more I look at this helmet the more it bothers me. I got word back from German Helmets inc. and the report was the helmet is good across the board and that if they were selling it that would have been about the sale price. This is based on the photos in the auction and the ones I sent in.

However take a look at these two photos below. Two rust spots that seem out of place. In the photos you see patina and remnants of green paint. But I really think it's a fantastic paint job by one of the helmet artists out there.

What do you think of the rust spots? Also notice the rust on the inside of the air vent. It's pure un altered rust. I should think the entire helmet should look like that. It's noticable on the outside of the vents too.

Mike

Edited August 10, 2006 by Hun Helmet

[Hun Helmet]

Another on the outside. Photo is not very good but best I can do.

[Daniel Murphy]

I think you are worrying about something that is perfectly normal. Not desirable , but normal on a helmet with that degree of finish. Where there is paint missing rust can form which can spiderweb its way under the paint and form bubbles and bumps like you show. Under magnification these look worse than they are. I think if a helmet "artist" got a hold of this it would be showing a lot more paint than it has. "Lets see, How can I make the most money off this. I know, I will make it look like it only has half the original paint" If a faker was tring to maximise profit, it would have a lot more paint and would probably be a camo. As you stated:

I got word back from German Helmets inc. and the report was the helmet is good across the board and that if they were selling it that would have been about the sale price.

You think they would say that if it had fake paint on it? In the end, YOU have to be happy with it. If you are not happy send it back, get your money, walk away and wait a few years for that excellent condition one with the liner. Maybe you can afford it or maybe not.

But I will tell you one thing. Back in about 1990 I had the opportunity to buy a relic M 18 cutout shell from GWM for $350. This was when Rick was selling out of his house. It was solid but pitted, repainted and was missing a small piece of the folded over rim and had been recovered near the Piave River in Italy at some point. I held it in my hands and thought "I like it but the condition is too rough". To this day I wish I had bought it and I still do not have one in my collection. Every time I see one for sale, which isn't often, I remember the one that got away. Now I have so many bills that I can't afford the big ticket items like that anymore. Maybe someday.....

Dan Murphy

[Hun Helmet]

Well I got another email from German helmets Inc after sending in more details and photos. I was told the shell is good so I am not letting it go back to seller. The rust spots I was told are in conclusive and the liner holes not having any paint wear is a problem I was told. The lack of pressing marks on the skirt I was told is normal. Not every helmet has them but with me only having a dozen or so helmets in my hand I would not have known this.

German Helmets inc told me that even if it was repainted the sale price is still in the right neighborhood.

My feeling is the helmet was re done but since it's fooled even the experts with the photos I can't place any blame on the seller. It took me 24 hours to start to think it was a repaint.

mike

[Les]

haha you bet. I pay monday and he ships next day.

Check out this one here. A guards helmet. I kept quiet about this one too. Did not bid but had a gut feeling it was good.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...A%3AIT&rd=1

Mike

Mike,

Two comments:

(1) the one with the Hohenzollern crest has the correct style crest without the little black border seen in Baer's book. However......I don't think this particular one is good. If you do an archives search here on GMIC a while back I posted a grouping that belonged to a KIA officer of the 1te G.R.z.F. and a camo helmet with the correct crest on it. In that photo you can even see where the camo had been applied over the first crest, and another painted on. Take a look at mine for one that's what it's cracked up to be.

One of the things I've noticed about genuine helmets with the Hohenzollern crest is they tend to be small, and are hand-painted. The lines where white/black meet are seldom all that straight.

What I look for on anything with old white paint, is the color, and texture of the paint. Almost all paints used at that time were lead-based (for adhesion to metal, etc, and smoothing the surface out). This gives some paints (particulary white) a thick look), and also over time, white starts to loose it's "pure white" appearance quickly through contact with dirt, grime, and so on, and begins turning a off-white/cream color.

If you picked this one up, there's a quick test that can be done on the paint(s) that is completely non-destructive. Environmental consulting firms that test for, and remove lead based paints from homes, buildings, etc, often use what looks like a radar gun to test for lead. They calibrate the machine, and if held up to something, it not only provides information whether lead is present, but in what percentages. The cost for doing this kind of test is less than you'd pay on lunch at a fast food outlet.

The base color of the helmet should have lead as a siccative to adhere to the bare metal, and either the black or white paint should also. If you get it tested, and -no- lead is present, send that baby back.

(2) A story....

About ten years ago, I was at a gun show, and had a table with a few items set up near the front door. Rick Keller of Great War Militaria came over and while talking to me, stepped behind my table and I was standing facing him on the "crowd" or public side. I saw him looking at someone, and he yelled "Is that for sale, and what's the price on it?". I turned around and saw someone starting to hand Keller a cut-out helmet with the crown down....at -my- table. Keller took the helmet and the guy told him the moment he handed it to him, $600. Keller paused less than five seconds, reached for his wallet and gave the guy the money.

I was a bit annoyed that it was my buying/sellign space, and not even given the chance to sniff the item before someone else stepped in and bought it. I got a chance to look at it once the sale was over, and the rim looked good, size markings were correct, etc, paint looked like it matched the rest of the helmet, and so o n.

Before the show was over, Keller sold the helmet to a good friend of mine for $800.

About six months later, my friend accidentally knocked the helmet off a shelf. It hit the floor, and part of the inside rim cracked and came right off the helmet! It was a carefully done fake that was cut, rolled, and another piece of metal had been soldered onto the inner rim of the cut out and then smoothed out and carefully painted.

The mighty morphin Czech helmet fakers had done an amazingly good job and if it hadn't been for the accidentaly drop/break, my friend might still have that fake helmet.

He got his money back, but it took time and the dealer who was innocent of any person wrong doing fought repayment like a whale about to be beached near a rendering plant.

Les

[Hun Helmet]

Mike,

Two comments:

(1) the one with the Hohenzollern crest has the correct style crest without the little black border seen in Baer's book. However......I don't think this particular one is good. If you do an archives search here on GMIC a while back I posted a grouping that belonged to a KIA officer of the 1te G.R.z.F. and a camo helmet with the correct crest on it. In that photo you can even see where the camo had been applied over the first crest, and another painted on. Take a look at mine for one that's what it's cracked up to be.

One of the things I've noticed about genuine helmets with the Hohenzollern crest is they tend to be small, and are hand-painted. The lines where white/black meet are seldom all that straight.

What I look for on anything with old white paint, is the color, and texture of the paint. Almost all paints used at that time were lead-based (for adhesion to metal, etc, and smoothing the surface out). This gives some paints (particulary white) a thick look), and also over time, white starts to loose it's "pure white" appearance quickly through contact with dirt, grime, and so on, and begins turning a off-white/cream color.

If you picked this one up, there's a quick test that can be done on the paint(s) that is completely non-destructive. Environmental consulting firms that test for, and remove lead based paints from homes, buildings, etc, often use what looks like a radar gun to test for lead. They calibrate the machine, and if held up to something, it not only provides information whether lead is present, but in what percentages. The cost for doing this kind of test is less than you'd pay on lunch at a fast food outlet.

The base color of the helmet should have lead as a siccative to adhere to the bare metal, and either the black or white paint should also. If you get it tested, and -no- lead is present, send that baby back.

(2) A story....

About ten years ago, I was at a gun show, and had a table with a few items set up near the front door. Rick Keller of Great War Militaria came over and while talking to me, stepped behind my table and I was standing facing him on the "crowd" or public side. I saw him looking at someone, and he yelled "Is that for sale, and what's the price on it?". I turned around and saw someone starting to hand Keller a cut-out helmet with the crown down....at -my- table. Keller took the helmet and the guy told him the moment he handed it to him, $600. Keller paused less than five seconds, reached for his wallet and gave the guy the money.

I was a bit annoyed that it was my buying/sellign space, and not even given the chance to sniff the item before someone else stepped in and bought it. I got a chance to look at it once the sale was over, and the rim looked good, size markings were correct, etc, paint looked like it matched the rest of the helmet, and so o n.

Before the show was over, Keller sold the helmet to a good friend of mine for $800.

About six months later, my friend accidentally knocked the helmet off a shelf. It hit the floor, and part of the inside rim cracked and came right off the helmet! It was a carefully done fake that was cut, rolled, and another piece of metal had been soldered onto the inner rim of the cut out and then smoothed out and carefully painted.

The mighty morphin Czech helmet fakers had done an amazingly good job and if it hadn't been for the accidentaly drop/break, my friend might still have that fake helmet.

He got his money back, but it took time and the dealer who was innocent of any person wrong doing fought repayment like a whale about to be beached near a rendering plant.

Les

I did not pick up the Guards helmet just the cut out. Do you have any photos of that faked cut out? It seems when good fakes are found they should be documented.

If I have a faked cut out it's top of the line fake. I am positive it's been refinshed. I don't think it's a faked helmet. ALL the fakes I have seen were unlike the real ones. The flare on the cut out is really hard to get right.

mike

[Chip]

I have to agree with Les regarding the Garde Division helmet insignia. It's too perfect. I have three of these helmets that I picked up in the 1970s and early 1980s before it was commonly known what they were. Somewhere, I still have a letter from the 1970s in which Ludwig Baer asks me what this insignia is.

None of my helmets has a shield as professionally done as this one. There are at least four more of these helmets in the area, which I believe to be original and which were also gathered in the very early 1980s. They display similar attributes, but with the inevitable smaller variations one would expect.

One other thing I might say is that all of my helmets are "Bell L's". I'm not saying that they were the only maker's helmets worn by the division, but it is something that I take into account.

I have seen quite a few of these helmets over the years, as the midwest is fertile ground for them. I got two out of the woodwork in Missouri and one from Illinois. One of our local divisions fought against the 1.Garde Division for over a week in late September of 1918. Thousands of prisoners were taken.

One of my helmets also has the double shield that Les mentions. Generally, I think that these shields were authorized in the spring of 1918 or earlier. I don't think that the date of this event has been pinned down. When the orders came for camouflaging in the summer of 1918, some of these shields were repainted. The shield on mine was painted over in Feldgrau and then a new shield was applied just a slight bit lower. At this time or later, many of the red company numbers at the rear of the helmets were changed. The numbers were repainted in white or black paint. Two of mine are repainted in white, but you can very easily see the outline of the (usually larger) red number underneath. My third helmet still has the red number "11" on the back.

I think that the company numbers were only worn by the infantry units of the division, while the other units (artillery, supply, communications, etc.) had none.

Chip

Edited August 12, 2006 by Chip

[Hun Helmet]

Well I am going to track down the winning bidder of that guards helmet so he can consider what was said here. He can always have German Helmets inc.com check it out. If it's bad maybe he can get his money back.

Mike

[Les]

Do you have any photos of that faked cut out? It seems when good fakes are found they should be documented.

mike

Mike,

I saw the helmet for a brief period of time before it was re-sold and never saw it again. I didn't have a camera with me at the time (pre-digital days), and consequently couldn't document it.

Les

[Hun Helmet]

Mike,

I saw the helmet for a brief period of time before it was re-sold and never saw it again. I didn't have a camera with me at the time (pre-digital days), and consequently couldn't document it.

Les

I hope it was not re faked and then sold

Mike