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Nice one!

A number of Tammys are coming along in the latest ANS sale at M&E, though many (like other medals in their collection) have not been kept well and seem to be in shoddy condition. A sad sale made all the sadder.

I tremble at what we'll see in part 3 (my main interest).

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Out of curiosity... has anybody ever seen a Tamara with a mint / manufacturers mark?

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Don't know what ANS / M&E mean... link perhaps?

Thanx

Oh . . . sorry.

ANS = American Numismatic Society -- they are selling their ENTIRE non-US medal collection (mainly gifted by society members from the late 19th century through the 1960s) - so sad

M&E = Morton and Eden, the UK auction house, they (to the sure frustration of some US-based phaleristic auction houses?) are selling (in conjunction wioth Sotheby's) teh ANS collection in (I think) three parts - part 2 (25-26 October) is online at http://www.mortonandeden.com/ -- go to "Next Sale" shere you can get the catalogue as a PDF (2 MB), or http://www.mortonandeden.com/ - the color plates are separate at http://www.mortonandeden.com/ans2plates.htm (drool).

The Tammys are lots 372-375. Two are illustrated http://www.mortonandeden.com/ans2plates/Plate2-36.jpg see it and drool. (BIGGGG.)

Edited by Ed_Haynes

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A lot of VERY nice stuff on that site!

 

One of the Tamara's shown is in fact the one also depicted in Klietmann's article.

post-679-1160928517.jpg

 

Edited by speedytop

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Hi Ed,

I concur with your take on the M&E sale. Especially with concerning the ANS selling off this material. It is a shame that these collections which were turned over to them in good faith for preservation and education are now being broken up and sold. Let this be a warning to all members with regard to bequeathing anything to third parties; and this does not apply to just orders and decorations collections.

Anyway Ed, there is something regarding this material that I have not been able to figure out; and hopefully you might have an answer. While, thankfully, a number of pieces are identified as being copies, there are also quite a few that are ?stamped ?x? on the suspension ring?. Do you have any idea as to what this is all about?

Best wishes,

Wild Card

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Agreed. While the interests of museums (and societies) change (and those who collect coins really don't tolerate us much more than as deviant bastard cousins), I do feel sad that those who busted their butts (and wallets) to get this collection for the ANS now find their goodies being sold away. OK, the society will come out well and the awards will go to other (loving) homes, but somehow, something just seems, well, wrong, here.

To be honest, part of it is that a good friend -- recently deceased -- gave a LOT of things to them (some in this sale, most in the next) in good faith. While I am temnpted by some of the Bukhara stuff, I'll just await the next sale to add some "ex-Spengler Collection, ex-ANS collection" items.

Not sure about the "X". That seems a 19th-century collection-marking practice. Saw some of that the summer I worked at the Smithsonian.

The whole show seems to me to be a very "numismatic" cataloging job. Done up by folks who know a lot about coins, but not much about medals. Still, some lovely items, and collected pre-WWII for the most part, so fewer provenance issues than usual.

But . . . oh . . . the "condition issues" . . . :o

Edited by Ed_Haynes

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Guest Brian von Etzel

Hi Ed,

I concur with your take on the M&E sale. Especially with concerning the ANS selling off this material. It is a shame that these collections which were turned over to them in good faith for preservation and education are now being broken up and sold. Let this be a warning to all members with regard to bequeathing anything to third parties; and this does not apply to just orders and decorations collections.

Anyway Ed, there is something regarding this material that I have not been able to figure out; and hopefully you might have an answer. While, thankfully, a number of pieces are identified as being copies, there are also quite a few that are ?stamped ?x? on the suspension ring?. Do you have any idea as to what this is all about?

Best wishes,

Wild Card

Exactly. I'd rather sell my entire lot than give it in good faith and it undoubtedly gets sold. There simply is no trust. Better every scattered to the four winds and in the hands of people who love this stuff than packed in a drawer until a museum needs a new wing for some politically correct exhibit.

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Bob--

:beer:

That is the only "class" Meybauer type I haven't got. Marketed as the "1st class" (sic) for "officers" (sic) the last one I saw in a documented group was bought by a Gefreiter!!! The blue enamel here was straight out of Meybauer's head, just as the plain gilt centered "2nd class" and all silvered "3rd class" designs were.

They are never marked except for the over the top real silver "ultra deluxe" versions.

ALL of these were privately purchased, remember-- there was never any such thing as an "issue" badge though Meybauer certainly seems to have got there first with the widest range of offerings in 1919.

I have a Tamara reeeeeeeebon bar due to arrive from my favorite unit, J?ger Regiment 29 aka 15.

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Did you just buy whichever "class" you could afford?

Was it that simple? That capitalist?? That open to the fantastical interpretation of jewelers' imaginations???

(Like so many other inter-war things phaleristic?)

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And at 1800 GBP in auction a little bit too expensive for my liking at this moment.

Buying an appartment and awards at the same time don't really go together very well :(

The upside, finally room to arrange for a good display of what I already have in the future :cheeky:

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Ed-- Yes.

There were no "classes."

Vanity, thy name is Buy Your Own Awards. :cheeky:

(Hence the particularly grotesque over-large and splendiferously facetted versions like the sale one illustrated usually attributed to FRENCH popinjays of circa 1921 being buttered up in the last days of the independent Caucasus Republics with empty, meaningless diplomatic "bestowals.")

Indeed, the very NAME of the award was never consistently established, hence my Saint/Queen Tamara usual joint designation. The Menshevik Republic of Georgia simply authorized--on paper-- the grand sounding bestowal of the "Order" without ANY design whatsoever.

The ever-resourceful Meybauer simply whipped out knock-offs based on the design of the UNIT BADGE of the Azerbaijani defector "Georgian Legion" right down to the nonsensical date of "1915" rather than 1918-- and got even the Georgian national colors wrong.

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Here is the so-called "2nd Class" which was marketed "for NCOs"--

 

[attachmentid=58528]

 

 

and I'll add the 3rd class later so all three types are in this thread together.

post-160-1161985066.jpg

 

 

Edited by speedytop

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And today Evil Ricky brought me my latest Tammy ribbon bar-- bottom left with all the others:

 

[attachmentid=58529]

post-160-1161985214.jpg

 

 

Edited by speedytop

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Great :beer:

These are then the socalled Paul Meybauer variants.

Here's dimensions of the "first class" one in my possession:

- Diameter of the star : 71.5 mm (vertical) and 70.95 mm (horizontal)

- Diameter of the center medallion : 27.35 mm

- Weight : 41.2 gr

Such info can be useful when auction catalogue doesn't show a pic so you have to guess from dimensions what type it might be...

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And here is the Meybauer so-called "3rd Class"--

[attachmentid=58545]

Same construction and cast (I think, or if struck in some yucky potmetal alloy that LOOKS cast and hand finished) star rays on all of the Meybauers.

Not his best work, and from the looks of them, a "one time" production that does not seem to have been an item kept in stock or made over long years in the 1920s and 1930s.

These are the "standard" Tamaras of 1919.

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Recently acquired another one (didn't want the first one to be lonely :P ).

Will post pic later today. At first glance, it looked similar to the one I already had but:

- bronze colored center medaillon

- with blue enamel but different "texture" (not as evenly applied)

- on reverse the condition is very clean but oddly enough there's a rivet!

Hope to receive some feedback once pic is posted.

This award is not as straightforward as one would expect. Then again, that only makes things more interesting (although people with Mongolian Polar Star orders might disagree:)).

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Actually, Bob, from what I have learned here in these threads about the Tammy, I think the order is really pretty straightforward. It is all about a mix of economics (the remarkable inventiveness of capitalism), psychology (how far folks will go to aggrandize their egos), political history (how concocted "States" can advertise themselves by awarding equally concocted orders), and sociology (the inter-war quest for some scrap of glory in a defeated Germany). Once you realize there is no order to this order and focus on the human factors (see above), it gets very interesting, but in non-phaleristic ways.

I am not even sure the Algan Gadas ("Polar Star") will be that complex phaleristically, once we get it sorted out. As you know, that is and will be quite a puzzle. Hooray! :P But I am afraid it won't have the rather sad human factors seen with Old Tammy and her boys.

Edited by Ed_Haynes

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Sight unseen, that sounds like the K?st type, Bob. Impossible to document these things but the most likely marketing scenario is that after Meybauer leaped in with their pirate edition in 1919, K?st simply took their existing 1917 "Legion" badge toolings and COPIED the completely incorrect blue off the Meybauer "1st Class" in place of the correct black and red of the defectors' unit badge.

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Here's a pic then. The rivet (or something which looks like it) is difficult to see because the pin can't be taken out due to excessively bent closed "lid" for the ring. The award is slightly lighter than my other one and also dimensions are a bit different. I'll take your word for it being a Kust then Rick - and pic in Klietmann confirms this as well (which I didn't have handy at work).

 

Such a shame that these cannot be linked to person which - as Ed mentions - would make it even more interesting. I will however be travelling in Georgia in December / January. For me phaleristics is also a great "excuse" to visit certain countries and read more about them.

post-679-1163795310.jpg

post-679-1163795362.jpg

 

 

Edited by speedytop

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Actually, now that I see these (maybe you can do both side by side) my first impression that your first one was K?st seems like I should have stuck with that. The second one looks more like the Meybauer version. K?st's crown flares out more at the top while Meybauer's goes straight up. It's hard to keep details of the face and "Dalek suit"

 

[attachmentid=61157]

 

apart with reflection shine, wear, corrosion, and so on.

 

I think the rivet is a repair:

 

I loaned my "2nd class" out years ago for a photo project that ended up taking a year, and when it came back in the mail, the center disk had popped out. There was some sort of old toothpaste-like solder "gloop" in there holding it on, as made. I think your second piece disk must have fallen out and this was how it was fixed and reattached. That would account for the irregular blue-- being partially re-enamelled. For instance, the veil over Tammy's left ear, on the right side looking at it, is covered by blue enamel on the second one.

post-160-1163797569.jpg

 

Edited by speedytop

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Interesting Rick. I got my other one out (and also again the Klietmann article)... the other one has more of a yellow oxydized look which would indeed indicate towards a Kust version.

What I don't get is what version my Meybauer then is... a "first class" with lost gilt, or a "second class" with added enamel or... ? Question mark comes from the fact that center piece is bronze and not gilt and certainly not silver.

Grrr

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