Rod Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 I have hesitated time after time to ask this question, but my curiousity is too great.A year or so ago I bought an 1870 EK1 from a dealer well know for his "insane" high prices.Let me explain. This is the exact same cross shown at the bottom of page 113 of Steve Previtera's book The Iron Time. It is the one marked "I have seen war". I have the letter of sale from Steve (the cross is from his personal collection) to a buyer and then a letter from my dealer to confirm he subsequently bought it directly from the same person. Based on the unique wear to the cross and my conversation with Steve I have no doubt this is the same cross as shown in his book.The silver content of the cross is marker "14 lotig" which indicates it was made prior to the change in silver marking of 800, 900, etc. that I believe occurred in 1873. The cross was advertised as "issued" which seems to make sense to me.I don't have buyer's regret but I am curious if the $2,800 price I paid was completely out of line in terms of today's market value. My feelings will not be hurt by your comments as I am satisfied with my purchase. However, I am really curious as to possibly how much my enthusiasm cost me.Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekhunter Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 I don't think anyone wants to hear that they paid too much for anything, so I won't be the one to do it. However, if you are happy with the cross, then that is all that truly matters. Have I ever paid over market for a cross because I really had to have it, of course I have, and I'm sure a few others have too. I don't recall this particular cross off of the top of my head, but I have the book at home. I'll take a look when I get home. In the meantime, could you post some photos of the cross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony J Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Some wise words acquired along the way......"You can never pay too much for a true collectable, you can only buy it too soon."All the best,Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve campbell Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 I'm not sure about prices but if your piece is genuine you have a desireable item to say the least. I believe they made 1307 of these 1st class awards so they are rare, especially when you consider how many are still around. There are more common awards out there going for alot more such as the 1939 Knight's Cross. That's a bargain compared to those. How many do you see for sale that are real? A second class version goes for at least $500 and there were over 40,000 of those made. It's hard to say if you paid too much. Depends on the money you have to spend on items like this. I would love to have one but would'nt buy one unless I could afford it. If you can and you trust the piece enjoy it. You have one of the more desirable EK examples around. Your out almost $3000, but how many people can say they have one in thier collection. I say enjoy it, it doesn't sound that outrageous a price in this field. How many items can you name that are going for well over $3000 in this hobby that are no where near as rare or hard to find as an 1870 1st class? Wish I had one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregM Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 I know we are always looking for that great deal at a flea marketor garage sale but let's face it, those days are pretty much gone.There is a 1870 EK1 currently on a dealers site that is listed for over$2000. There is no paper tail behind it and was not published in a book.You might have paid a little on the high end of the scale for your EK butit's not like you got ripped off. Besides that sometimes you just "gotta have it " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biro Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 ....I don't have buyer's regret but I am curious if the $2,800 price I paid was completely out of line in terms of today's market value. My feelings will not be hurt by your comments as I am satisfied with my purchase...Hi RodIs it this one?Although personally this piece does not do it for me, $2800 is not over the top for a nice period 1870 EK1 that you trust. As my friend Tony J alluded above - the price is practically irrelevant...[attachmentid=59225] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve campbell Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 When you say the piece does not do it for you, are you refering to it's authenticity, or is it just something that doesn't appeal to you from a collecting standpoint? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted November 2, 2006 Author Share Posted November 2, 2006 Hi RodIs it this one?Although personally this piece does not do it for me, $2800 is not over the top for a nice period 1870 EK1 that you trust. As my friend Tony J alluded above - the price is practically irrelevant...[attachmentid=59225]Yes it looks like the one!I know this is the real McCoy. and I am glad I have it.I was only wondering about the extent of a premium I may have paid. Just a casual question.Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biro Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 When you say the piece does not do it for you, are you refering to it's authenticity, or is it just something that doesn't appeal to you from a collecting standpoint?Hi SteveOK - since you asked, I'll reiterate it's my personal view only and it's very simple. I'm a firm believer that only crosses marked 'I Wagner' are the bonefide Wagner issued pieces from the period, and therefore by default, I can see no logic behind a 'J Wagner' stamp being a concurrently used, period maker mark by the same Wagner firm in the 1870's. Besides, I've just seen too many fakes using the exact 'J Wagner' designate on this cross above to be comfortable with this as a legitimate period maker mark anymore.And I'm not alone... the subject was discussed here http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...1870+EK1+makers by myself and others some time ago. I would encourage you to take some time and read it carefully - some interesting theories were raised. And for the record, the cross referred to in post #30 of that thread is the one pictured above...Just my thoughts... Marshall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve campbell Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 Thanks. Always trying to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted November 3, 2006 Author Share Posted November 3, 2006 GEEESSSHHH.... I never expected all this!!!!Is anyone familar with the history of the Wagner firm? I. Wagner versus J. Wagner??? Perhaps a father to son progression?I have a pic of the reverse side on my EK but hesitate to show it as it may violate some copyright. But I can say the pin is NOT a needle. It is more of a bar (if that makes any sense to you).I have a medal bar with an 1870 EK2 blessed by Detlev "as presented" which looks exactly the same to my untrained eye as my EK1. They are fully a step up in quality from my 1914 EKs.Am I correct in saying that prior to say 1914 it would have been illegal to sell a medal with an out moded silver mark and also to someone to whom the award was never made? Guess I am opening up another can of worms.In any event I am still happy with my purchase. Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimZ Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 I just got a passing interest in EKs so I cannot contribute. I however think that if you have bought and own the piece its within your right to photograph it and publish your own pics on such a forum. Interesting how the more you think you know about a subject, the more you find out that you in fact do not! Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted November 5, 2006 Author Share Posted November 5, 2006 After doing some further reading and thinking.... and granted I have a vested interest.... I think the jury is still out. There are still too many unanswered questions and possibilities to draw definite conclusions.Hang on to your "J's and lotig"" guys!!One last question at least for now....... Do other awards bear the I. Wagner name? I am only aware of the J. Wagner.Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted November 10, 2006 Author Share Posted November 10, 2006 (edited) It makes absolutely no sense to me that a FAKE would be made under J. WAGNER with 14 LOTIG!!!Who is I. Wagner???How many members have seen the J. Wagner with the 14 lotig???????????It is a quality item!!!!Rod Edited November 10, 2006 by Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Y Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 It makes absolutely no sense to me that a FAKE would be made under J. WAGNER with 14 LOTIG!!!Who is I. Wagner???How many members have seen the J. Wagner with the 14 lotig???????????It is a quality item!!!!RodI and J are interchangeable in old German. Both pronounced as Y Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKeating Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 (edited) I have a pic of the reverse side on my EK but hesitate to show it as it may violate some copyright. It won't violate any copyright. This is a free website and, in any case, you'd be posting the image for the purposes of sharing information so it would certainly fall under the 'fair use' proviso contained in copyright legislation. In any event I am still happy with my purchase. RodThe debate about 1870 EK1 by Wagner notwithstanding, you bought a cross widely accepted as an original piece, published as a benchmark example in one of the acclaimed reference works on the Iron Cross. If the cross is OK, then you have to take the view that you paid tomorrow's price to have something special today.PK Edited November 11, 2006 by PKeating Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biro Posted December 9, 2006 Share Posted December 9, 2006 It makes absolutely no sense to me that a FAKE would be made under J. WAGNER with 14 LOTIG!!!How many members have seen the J. Wagner with the 14 lotig???????????......RodHello RodI am certainly not on some crusade against your piece and have given you my opinion for what it's worth already.It's important though that you are aware that fakes baring spurious marks including J. Wagner 14 Lotig DO exist. Check this link... http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt...bayphotohostingThe current offer for this piece on ebay? - 34 Euros...Marshall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brian von Etzel Posted December 9, 2006 Share Posted December 9, 2006 (edited) Marshal, although I agree with you very often, just because the I and J are both appearing and today a faker uses one versus the other doesn't negate the form having been originally used. This mark obviously fake. Edited December 9, 2006 by Brian von Etzel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted December 9, 2006 Author Share Posted December 9, 2006 Sigh...................... well I guess I will continue to whistle in the dark. All I can say is that mine sure looks like quality and the pin arrangement in not a "barrel" but flat.Gee guys it does get discouraging. Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biro Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 Marshal, although I agree with you very often, just because the I and J are both appearing and today a faker uses one versus the other doesn't negate the form having been originally used.....I'll concede to that possibility Brian, but only because there is irrefutable proof (in the form of Goblets, 25yr Railway Badges & WHS) that a 'J Wagner' mark was indeed being used by the firm around the 1914 period and therefore could well have been in use earlier...But is there proof that it was in use THAT much earlier than 1914?? I have yet to see what I consider to be one of the two or three genuine 1870 EK1 cores with a 'J Wagner' marked frame. The cores I personally have down as genuine to the period are without exception marked either I Wagner, Godet, Lauer, or not at all. Take your own (Leo's) 1870 mounted EK2 for example... I beleive this piece below to be the first class version of that cross - e.g. it has a matching core - and I therefore trust it implicitly to be period 1870. I have never seen this rare version of the EK1 marked J Wagner, only ever I Wagner as you can see here...Perhaps if someone can show me an original pre-1900 award/order/medal of any description that is marked with 'J Wagner' or 'Joh Wagner' I will have learnt something... but to the best of my knowledge only the letter 'W' was being used, as on the PLM, or perhaps 'WuS'... Rod - don't despair mate.... noone REALLY knows ... it is of course all just personal hypothesis and conjecture that our wives aren't remotely interested in listening to........ so that's why we come here! Marshall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKeating Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 Sorry to muscle in for a moment on an EK1 thread but having studied the magnificent Wagner EK1 posted just above by Marshall, I think this EK2 must be by Wagner as well. I have always considered this cross to be an example made between c.1895 - c.1915 because of its overall 1914 look. So, is this EK1 from the same time frame or have I been mistaken? PK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biro Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 ProsperYour piece is not a match for the 1870 Wagner core and I would agree with you is much later...Marshall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flak88 Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 I agree about the I Wagner. Here are my 1870s, and the EK1 is a perfect I Wagner, as you know Marshall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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