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Hello!

Austrians and germans in a "Sturmtrupp" exercise!

"Sturmtruppenlehr-Kursus der D.S.A." (D.S.A. = Deutsche Süd-Armee)

Sturmtrupp-Lehrkursus der Deutsche Südarmee (2).jpg

Sturmtrupp-Lehrkursus_der_Deutsche_Südarmee_(1).jpg

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This photo is noted as " Stoßtrupp at Cirey (Tanconville) Sept 1916" from the equipment it looks to be a "real" Sturm unit, not just one in name...sturm.thumb.jpg.0104faa0f938da25524e87ff95fc6601.jpg

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Hello!

Do they have leather-patches on the trousers?

Can you recognize the helmet-cover of the man walking before the horse?

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4 minutes ago, The Prussian said:

Hello!

Do they have leather-patches on the trousers?

Can you recognize the helmet-cover of the man walking before the horse?

Hi, I will check when I get home

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👍

Great!

By the way... I am home...

But I wonder, why the card is writte with Stosstrupp and not Surm...

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HI, it comes from the group of a field veternarian, there were a bunch of photos he picked up in the area, but were not his unit. I am guessing he did not know the correct term, I assume it was the Sturm Bataillon attached to that Armeekorks... maybe Sturmbataillon 14?

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Hi, the picklehaube have a number on them, impossible to read.

September 16 is still extremely early for Sturmunits... In fact, it predates most units... I think at the time Rohr was traing specifically thst.thumb.jpg.390e4923f753d5e7dd99049c0004922f.jpge Armee Abteilungs Gaede, Falkenhausen etc....

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I can´t see leather patches. Can you  make a close-up of the helmet-number?

Stormbataillonns were not attached to Armeekorps, but to armies. The fact, that we see a number on a helmet cover, could be a proof, it´s not a regular storm-bataillon.

In that period of time the 19th Ers.Div. (Armee-Abteilung A) was in that area:

Ersatz-Regiments 23, 32, 24, and 40.

Ersatz-companies. 12th and 22nd Pi.Btl.

254th Pi.Comp.

88th Res.Pi.Comp.

60th Res.Inf.Rgt.

100th Ldw.Inf.Rgt. (until october)

The helmet number could be a 100?

 

Scannen0001.jpg

Edited by The Prussian

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HI,

"Stormbataillonns were not attached to Armeekorps, but to armies. " indeed, it developed that way mainly so from 1917, but in 1916, right up until the end of the year there were very different systems of organization, especially in this area. And after that the Divisional Sturm Units trained by Sturmbataillon were also not Army level.

As far as the Musik Zug goes, I am guessing Assualt units did not always have a Musik Zug, it could very well be from the local Kommandanture. Leather pants may become symbolic for Sturm Units, but in 1916 early 1917 they seem to be real manglewaren and not often on Divisional level.

Werner Lacoste's book "Deutsche Sturmbataillone 1915-18" covers it really well,

Going through some end of 1916 SB Rohr Photos... leather trousers seem to be very much the exception in 1916

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Hi Chris!

Yes, you are right, but your focus was on Sturmbataillon, not divisionally Sturmabteilungen...

The official Sturmbataillon for Armee-Abt. A was the bavarian Sturmbataillon 15, raised xmas 1916.

Another fact is, that the Armee-Abt. A had 2 Lehr-Abteilungen with 60-80 men each. They teached the "Stosstrupps" of the regiments. Each regiment had 60-80 men in their Stosstrupps.

Maybe your photo shows one of those?

Edited by The Prussian

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9 minutes ago, The Prussian said:

Hi Chris!

Yes, you are right, but your focus was on Sturmbataillon, not divisionally Sturmabteilungen...

The official Sturmbataillon for Armee-Abt. A was the bavarian Sturmbataillon 15, raised xmas 1916.

Another fact is, that the Armee-Abt. A had 2 Lehr-Abteilungen with 60-80 men each. They teached the "Stosstrupps" of the regiments. Each regiment had 60-80 men in their Stosstrupps.

Maybe your photo shows one of those?

Hi, agreed, that may be why they have "Stostrupp " on the back. This is a month before units in the sector were officially designated "Sturmbataillon"...

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1 hour ago, The Prussian said:

They have leather-knees!

Sturmbataillon!

Hi, could be, but I have a number of photos of men not in a SB and having leather. The SB were not the first to have it ;-)

However, I think you are correct. This was in Cirey area as well... for most of the war it was an area occupied by geriatrics... with some Assault units to prop them up... looking at the pics, these are not the old guys.....

 

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Yes, you won´t see leather-trousers on the western-front usually. Mostly they were worn by mountain troops.

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4 hours ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

Hi, could be, but I have a number of photos of men not in a SB and having leather. The SB were not the first to have it ;-)

Hi Chris and all,

who apart from SB and mountain troops would be equipped with leather reinforced trousers?

GreyC

Edited by GreyC

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28 minutes ago, GreyC said:

Hi Chris and all,

who apart from SB and mountain troops would be equipped with leather reinforced trousers?

GreyC

I have seen regular Bavarian Infantry with leather, for some reason I have in the back of my head that it was a popular way of repairing pants, but then at some stage it was discouraged to save raw material.

3 minutes ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

I have seen regular Bavarian Infantry with leather, for some reason I have in the back of my head that it was a popular way of repairing pants, but then at some stage it was discouraged to save raw material.

Of course, the bavarians in the photos may have been in the Vogesen or Alps and serving in the mountains as opposed to being officially designated Gebirgs truppen. I will look today, but I think I also have pics of non SB assault troops wearing leather.

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Troops with mountain-uniforms were 26.1.1917:

 

9.Armee (LII.AK, 217.ID, parts of 89.ID, 218.ID, parts of bav. 12.ID)

11.Armee (Gren.Rgt.11, Garde-Jäger-Btl., Res.Inf.Rgt.21, Jg.Btl.9 and 12, Inf.Rgt.45, Res.Jg.Btl.11-13, 15, 19, Inf.Rgt.146, Schallmeßtrupp 4, Garde-Schützen-Btl. + units since 29.7.1918: Jg.Btl.8, Geb.Bttr.9, 14-16, 18, bav. Geb.Bttr.10, bav. Pi.Kp.106, Pi.Kp.201, Geb.MG-Abt. 210, 211, 214, 216, 217, 219, 220, 230, 231, Geb.MW-Kp. 171, 172, 176, Geb.Funker-Abt. 3-5, 9, 78, 79, Geb.Fernspr.Zug 814-816

14.Armee (all units)

Armee-Abt. A (parts of bav. Pi.Kp.23, Funker-Abt. 6b)

Armee-Abt. B (Infantry of 6.bav. Ldw.Div., parts of 7.Kav.Div., bav. San.Kp.3, 2./Fußart.Btl.2, MG-Abt. 201, 201 and 208, + units since 19.7.1918:  Ul.Rgt.21, Ldw.Inf.Rgt. 38, 40 and 436, several Landsturm units)

Armee-Abt. Scholtz (Geb.MG-Abt. 212, 213, 215, 222-225, 232, 233, 247-250, Geb.Pi.Kp.101, Geb.Funker-Abt.1, 6a and 7, Geb.Vers.Haub.Battr. 941, Geb.Fernsprech- and Signalzüge)

 

Source: Kraus, vol. I, page 246

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53 minutes ago, The Prussian said:

Troops with mountain-uniforms were 26.1.1917:

 

9.Armee (LII.AK, 217.ID, parts of 89.ID, 218.ID, parts of bav. 12.ID)

11.Armee (Gren.Rgt.11, Garde-Jäger-Btl., Res.Inf.Rgt.21, Jg.Btl.9 and 12, Inf.Rgt.45, Res.Jg.Btl.11-13, 15, 19, Inf.Rgt.146, Schallmeßtrupp 4, Garde-Schützen-Btl. + units since 29.7.1918: Jg.Btl.8, Geb.Bttr.9, 14-16, 18, bav. Geb.Bttr.10, bav. Pi.Kp.106, Pi.Kp.201, Geb.MG-Abt. 210, 211, 214, 216, 217, 219, 220, 230, 231, Geb.MW-Kp. 171, 172, 176, Geb.Funker-Abt. 3-5, 9, 78, 79, Geb.Fernspr.Zug 814-816

14.Armee (all units)

Armee-Abt. A (parts of bav. Pi.Kp.23, Funker-Abt. 6b)

Armee-Abt. B (Infantry of 6.bav. Ldw.Div., parts of 7.Kav.Div., bav. San.Kp.3, 2./Fußart.Btl.2, MG-Abt. 201, 201 and 208, + units since 19.7.1918:  Ul.Rgt.21, Ldw.Inf.Rgt. 38, 40 and 436, several Landsturm units)

Armee-Abt. Scholtz (Geb.MG-Abt. 212, 213, 215, 222-225, 232, 233, 247-250, Geb.Pi.Kp.101, Geb.Funker-Abt.1, 6a and 7, Geb.Vers.Haub.Battr. 941, Geb.Fernsprech- and Signalzüge)

 

Source: Kraus, vol. I, page 246

That is great, I have Kraus, but had not noticed that. Of course, it depends on availibility, like so much back then. I have many photos of mountain troops without leather, and pics of SB without leather....

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Kraus writes, that first the Alpenkorps was equipped with the "Gebirgshose". (17.8.11915). The Sturmbataillone recieved their leather-patched-trousers with ordre from 2.1.1917 (Kraus, vol. I, page 560).

You wrote, a couple of photos were from 1918. In may 1918, the Gen.Kdo.59 was in the area of Cirey.

In Sept./Nov. 1918 the Armee-Abteilung A was:

VII.AK, XV.RK, Gen.Kdo.59, austrian IX.AK

Units since 15.9.1918

13.ID (until 15.9.1918), 75.RD (7.10.-5.11.1918), 61.Ldw.Brig., 21.LD, 96.ID, 92.Res.Jg.Brig., 25.ID (18.-25.9.1918), 301.ID, 39.RD, hungarian 37.Honved-Div.

What about a close-up of the helmet cover in #204, please?

 

Edited by The Prussian

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Well, I have been through my Leibregiment binder and SB binder.... of my late 1916 SB Rohr pics, less than half the guys have leather, on my Flammenwerfer pics (only 3) noone has leather, on my Leib Regt pics only 2 are wearing leather.

I do not think we should underestimate supply problems, it is great to authorize Leather... but then you need supply it... and to a certain extent personal preference must have played a roll... especially of you are marching, marching and marching more in the mountains...

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