Soviet A modest proposal

[Eric Schena]

Hi all:

I have been working on getting reference materials for Eastern Bloc medals recently and had a bit of a thought. While Soviet decorations are pretty well documented in the current body of literature, there are still a lot of holes in our understanding of the other Eastern European honors systems. I was thinking that a great collaborative project would be to have a McDaniel/Schmitt or a Battushig type encyclopedia of Eastern European communist medals - specifically Albania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, DDR, Hungary, Poland, Romania, and Yugoslavia. What would be good to see is a one stop shopping encyclopedia that would apply the specialist's eye on key variations (not necessarily delve into TR level of detail), while still maintaining a solid focus on why the medals were awarded and the history behind them. I have focused my energies on one nation in particular, but I am utterly fascinated by medals from the other Eastern Bloc nations, as well. I left off the USSR and nations outside of Europe for now as I think this project would be best served if done in chunks. Start with Europe and work our way to Asia, Africa, and the Americas eventually.

So, does this sound overly ambitious or even feasible to anyone here? I think with forums such as this one that allow for ease of international collaboration (I received help from kind folks in Germany, France, Belgium, Serbia, Bulgaria, Russia, and Albania on my modest work on Albanian medals) would really help to facilitate such a project. I know that if such a project did get off the ground, I'd be happy to contribute or even incorporate my Albanian research into it.

Cheers,

Eric

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Eric,

brilliant idea .

How to organize, how to finance and who would publish the book?

Possible to make a EU-research-project out of it?

Best regards

Christian

[Ed_Haynes]

I like the idea. Let me think.

[Chuck In Oregon]

Hello Eric

I like your idea a lot.

If you/we (we, as in we at GMIC) decide to proceed with it, I would like to have something to do with a section on Georgia awards. There is only one small book on Georgian phaleristics (that I know of) and it is woefully inadequate.

Plus, I have a small number of non-Georgian awards that might be useful in such a project.

Are there any other gentlemen with particular interests who would contribute? Rick, I can picture your article/chapter on the Order of Tamar.

I have already been pondering a small reference book on Georgian awards, concentrating on Soviet but not especially limited to that, using one of the vanity press outfits. I settled on Lulu, at

http://www.lulu.com/

after reviewing several others. The publishing costs at Lulu would be little or nothing and buying a copy would be easy for anyone. Plus, revisions could be made at any time or simply accumulated for annual or bi-annual revisions. As for the proceeds, should there be any, I can think of two possibilities off the top of my head:

1. GMIC

2. My own charity (I submit unashamedly), CCRFund Inc., which has been recognized in the forum in the past.

OK, that's my two cents, and worth every penny. I hope this takes off.

Chuck

[Riley1965]

This would be a very good thing if done right. I'll support it all I can.

Doc

[Guest Rick Research]

I would strongly recommend individual country work:

1) NOBODY has encyclopaedic knowledge, but people do specialize, as you have so spectacularly done with Albania, Eric

2) Most collectors whom I know are forced by either budgetary or language limitations to zoom in on specific areas of collecting-- which means a conscious decision to leave out other things... which means not interested in other things.

3) The massive scale of a "Bloc" work will realistically impede completion of SUBcategorizies. Multi-nation work that must have ALL done, leaving NOTHING available until 100% is finished will be the result.

I'd say go with one by one by one. Each one done would be... one more done.

Now, as to how to proceed:

Alphabetically.

Albania-- check.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Not having a horse in this race, I would say step one should be voting for a coordinater. Someone who has a track record of getting things done... and swinging the whip....

[Ed_Haynes]

Good ideas, Rick. But, maybe, the first question will be "what is the table of contents"? What is in, what is out. USSR out, OK. What about republics within the USSR and post-Soviet successor states (e.g., Estonia, Georgia)?

Warsaw Pact? That's be (excluding USSR): East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, Hungary, Poland, Romania, and Albania (for a while).

Or - maybe better, but!? -- COMECON: (also excluding USSR) Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, the German Democratic Republic, Hungary, Romania, Poland, Cuba, Mongolia, and Vietnam.

Add Yugoslavia?

Or . . . ????

(These sorts of questions are the sorts of things I have had to deal with in my 1200+ page "work in progress" on Arab ODM.)

Edited November 28, 2006 by Ed_Haynes

[Guest Rick Research]

I would suggest that anybody who CAN pick out a specialized area to begin work, like Eric did, with the ABILITY to complete it, should list what they will begin, and ask for assistance for that area.

With my own transcription, additional research, and (eventually) publication of German WW1 unpublished award rolls, even my First True Love Ribbon Bars is on a back burner for an improved (and non stolen from me) updated version. I'm "booked" for at least a calendar year.

And while I am enthusuiastically interested in Castro regime Cuban awards, as an example, the complete-- and I mean T-O-T-A-L lack of available references (Types? Creation decrees? Numbers awarded? Award documents? and on endlessly) means that there is a staggering lack of even Color Picture Book illustrative material available.

And believe me, it is better not to start projects that grow out of control, so KEEP THINGS FOCUSSED or the end result of a lot of work will end up as... nothing.

[Chuck In Oregon]

Not having a horse in this race, I would say step one should be voting for a coordinater. Someone who has a track record of getting things done... and swinging the whip....

* * * * *

Hmmmm ...

Who among us has a Ph.D. in history and has already been published and is a well-known whip-swinger?

Inquiring minds and all that.

Chuck

[Ed_Haynes]

* * * * *

Hmmmm ...

Who among us has a Ph.D. in history and has already been published and is a well-known whip-swinger?

Inquiring minds and all that.

Chuck

Shaddup.

[Chris Boonzaier]

and is a well-known whip-swinger?

You mean you saw the photo of a latex clad Rick with a leather whip being pulled by 3 blond vixens wearing nothing but ...um... perfume??

[Eric Schena]

I am so glad to see folks are interested!

Warsaw Pact? That's be (excluding USSR): East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, Hungary, Poland, Romania, and Albania (for a while).

Or - maybe better, but!? -- COMECON: (also excluding USSR) Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, the German Democratic Republic, Hungary, Romania, Poland, Cuba, Mongolia, and Vietnam.

Add Yugoslavia?

Or . . . ????

I thought about this for a while before posting the idea and figured on geographical Eastern Europe: Albania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, the DDR, Hungary, Poland, Romania, and Yugoslavia. The USSR is well documented, the Soviet republics would be fantastic, but when I thought about it, those reach into the USSR realm (do you include the Red Banner of the RSFSR?). So, I finally settled on Eastern Europe minus the USSR. As much as I would love to see something like that, I wanted think slightly smaller scale than all communist states in the world (as Rick said, Cuba is almost as bad as Albania was - until recently - in terms of any sort of reference material).

In any event, I love seeing everyone's thoughts on this. I don't know about others, but I keep what I call my Eastern Bloc "source book", which has photos and bits and bobs of accumulated knowledge I've run across (things like: how many varieties are there of the Czech Order of the White Lion, when were .333 fine examples of the Karl Marx Order produced, etc.). I think it's high time that a lot of the knowledge that's been accumulating for the past several years be put to paper.

Cheers,

Eric

Edited November 28, 2006 by Eric Schena

[Chris Boonzaier]

I dont want to get involved in this as it is so far out of my field, but I think it would be a great forum project.... so here goes..

1) guys, if this is in the initial debating stages, reason with each other and think of it all all points of view... dont go at it cudgels and chains as to what should be in there and what should not be right from stage one.

2) remember there are things like annexes... if something does not fit 100% but is of interest, it could be included as a seperate "bonus" to the book

3) everyone running their own way and just doing may mean very different qualities and types of work, someone who coordiantes is a must.... and it does not have to be an expert in the subject... many good managers have bugger all knowledge about the nuts and bolts of what they are managing...

[orden_master]

I thought about this for a while before posting the idea and figured on geographical Eastern Europe: Albania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, the DDR, Hungary, Poland, Romania, and Yugoslavia.

Cheers,

Eric

Hi Eric

just one idea would be to reassamble a present and known (available?) bibliography on those countrys you have stated. As I've got an almost complete Yugoslavia collection I also still have a very complete bookshelf dealing with this country, but I was collecting also books an all sides I could get so I have books on Bulgaria, Romania and little stuff on Albania. That would be maybe step 1.1 for the "whip-swinger" to collect a database of sources.

I would be in the project altough my restricted time resources

Best regards

Milan

[Ed_Haynes]

Is is also important that the project coordinator/editor (Eric? he suggested it??) get a group of people together who have the requisite language skills and access to sources (not to sorts of guesses that just pollute our knowledge). This may "break" the whole project?

[Eric Schena]

Is is also important that the project coordinator/editor (Eric? he suggested it??) get a group of people together who have the requisite language skills and access to sources (not to sorts of guesses that just pollute our knowledge). This may "break" the whole project?

As much as I would love to be the coordinator for such a project, I simply do not have the time, nor the resources to do it properly. I will absolutely assist in it where at all possible (I like Milan's idea of gathering a bibliography first a lot and have some stuff to contribute there and not just Albanian medals) but I don't want to commit to something and not be able to follow through.

Anyone have any other suggestions for a coordinator/whip-swinger?

Cheers,

Eric

[orden_master]

Is is also important that the project coordinator/editor (Eric? he suggested it??) get a group of people together who have the requisite language skills and access to sources (not to sorts of guesses that just pollute our knowledge). This may "break" the whole project?

Thanks Ed, I forgott to mention the languaga database, as it is of VERY big issua as most of the books dealing with those exotic countrys are written in their own language.

regards

Milan

[Ed_Haynes]

Thanks Ed, I forgott to mention the languaga database, as it is of VERY big issua as most of the books dealing with those exotic countrys are written in their own language.

regards

Milan

For any country, the most (only?) reliable sources are those in the language of the country involved. This is not especially surprising.

[Guest Rick Research]

Well, at least DDR would be the SAME German as all those other versions of Reich and Republik.

Beyond that, it would be nice if collectors IN some of these countries could advance such projects from their own local knowledge.

[attachmentid=62998]

Try not to get distracted, try not to get distracted, try not to get distracted....

[hunyadi]

For what its worth - I would like to help with the Hugnarian section, but writing about Hungarian People's Republic awards is not my full time job...

[Bob]

I agree that a "country" focus would probably be best to limit scope and achieve comprehensive coverage in a specific area.

I'd like to contribute obviously to the Albania section. I also have a limited interest also in Bulgarian awards - for which quite some good documentation already exists. In addition, I'd be interested in zooming in on Moldovan awards although I have nothing to contribute there yet (apart from my recommendation on Moldovan wine and Moldovan ladies).

This of course next to my other interests, mainly being Mongolian awards and - more recently - Order of Tamara (for which I am trying to bit by bit collect available knowledge into one English language document much like Eric's on Albanian awards but obviously limited to only 1 award).

Did I mention focus?

[Lukasz Gaszewski]

Hi All,

I am sorry I could not join the discussion earlier. I am just back from London where I had a pleasure to participate in the launch of Burke's World Orders of Knighthood and Merit.

The idea of the project sounds fascinating indeed. I have been thinking of publishing a book like this myself. I will be glad to lend a hand with the project. I have been doing medal research for over twenty years now and I have collected a nice library of not only books on the subject, but of official bulletins of different countries with regulations regarding awards as well. I can read a few Eastern Bloc languages, including Bulgarian, Czech, German, Hungarian (!), Polish, Romanian, Russian and Serbo-Croat, which I think can be an asset.

The problem with me can be that I am not very much a collector (although I have a small collection of selected items), so I will not be able to provide many items for illustration.

I can write the Polish section and possibly also some other sections which will be not covered by other authors (I recently wrote articles about the medals of Bulgaria and Romania). I will also be glad to help coordinate the project, or may even consider coordinating it myself, oprovided I can share my duties with another individual. I can also try arranging publication of the book in Poland which may help reduce costs.

I agree that the most essential for the start is to select the time frames covered by the book and the countries to be included. I have made a list of the countries which at one point of their history used the "people's" or "socialist" adjective in their names (I am still not sure if I have included all):

EUROPE

Albania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Soviet Union, Yugoslavia.

ASIA

Afghanistan, Burma (Myanmar), Cambodia, China, Laos, Mongolia, North Korea, Vietnam, Yemen.

AFRICA

Angola, Ethiopia.

NORTH AMERICA

Cuba

The next thing will be to determine the scope of content for each contry and each entry.

Anyway I am glad Eric has put forward this excellent idea I will be more than happy to assist.

Lukasz

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Lukasz,

excellent proposal .

To get proper illustrations might not be THE big problem, because there are thousends of good photographs in other books and specially in the www. So with an agreement concerning copy rights they could be used.

The question is: How comprehensive should the publiction be? If you make it really into the depth, then we will get a library of at least 10 very fat books . If everything would be pressed into one volume, then the value for the collector and/or historian might be rather small.

Finances: Might it be possible to form a Brussel-financed "European-Research-Project"?

Best regards

Christian

Hi All,

I am sorry I could not join the discussion earlier. I am just back from London where I had a pleasure to participate in the launch of Burke's World Orders of Knighthood and Merit.

The idea of the project sounds fascinating indeed. I have been thinking of publishing a book like this myself. I will be glad to lend a hand with the project. I have been doing medal research for over twenty years now and I have collected a nice library of not only books on the subject, but of official bulletins of different countries with regulations regarding awards as well. I can read a few Eastern Bloc languages, including Bulgarian, Czech, German, Hungarian (!), Polish, Romanian, Russian and Serbo-Croat, which I think can be an asset.

The problem with me can be that I am not very much a collector (although I have a small collection of selected items), so I will not be able to provide many items for illustration.

I can write the Polish section and possibly also some other sections which will be not covered by other authors (I recently wrote articles about the medals of Bulgaria and Romania). I will also be glad to help coordinate the project, or may even consider coordinating it myself, oprovided I can share my duties with another individual. I can also try arranging publication of the book in Poland which may help reduce costs.

I agree that the most essential for the start is to select the time frames covered by the book and the countries to be included. I have made a list of the countries which at one point of their history used the "people's" or "socialist" adjective in their names (I am still not sure if I have included all):

EUROPE

Albania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Soviet Union, Yugoslavia.

ASIA

Afghanistan, Burma (Myanmar), Cambodia, China, Laos, Mongolia, North Korea, Vietnam, Yemen.

AFRICA

Angola, Ethiopia.

NORTH AMERICA

Cuba

The next thing will be to determine the scope of content for each contry and each entry.

Anyway I am glad Eric has put forward this excellent idea I will be more than happy to assist.

Lukasz

[Riley1965]

Lukasz,

It's good to see you here... ...and a good idea!!!

Doc