johannes post Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 hello peoplei have a question about the airgunner badge with no blitz.are the originel exsamples only made in fine zink i have seing one on a auction site in aluminium but i don't like that one.and have the buntmetall versions from the airgunner (specially the deumers).factory removed lightnings ?ore where they made without them?thanks for youre answers !regards johan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Temple-West Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 Hi JohanEarly examples were made of tombak/buntmetal but the majority will be of zinc. Examples found with the bolts removed were done when orders were issued for the new classification of Air Gunner/Flight Engineer (Without Bolts). By the same order, those who were Air Gunners and holders of the Radio Operator/ Air Gunner?s badge (With Bolts) had to have the bolts removed to meet the new regulations.Radio Operators continued to wear the version with bolts.The unqualified (Black wreath/Silver eagle) version will only be found in zinc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johannes post Posted November 28, 2006 Author Share Posted November 28, 2006 (edited) hello johndo you have in your fantastic collection a officiele buntmetall airgunner without lightning too show.i where always thinking that they where removing the blitz at a later stadium.regards johanp.s. one of mine (finezink junckers)Hi JohanEarly examples were made of tombak/buntmetal but the majority will be of zinc. Examples found with the bolts removed were done when orders were issued for the new classification of Air Gunner/Flight Engineer (Without Bolts). By the same order, those who were Air Gunners and holders of the Radio Operator/ Air Gunner?s badge (With Bolts) had to have the bolts removed to meet the new regulations.Radio Operators continued to wear the version with bolts.The unqualified (Black wreath/Silver eagle) version will only be found in zinc. Edited November 28, 2006 by johannes post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Temple-West Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 Not one in the collection but have seen a few and have a few on file.. You may well be right that they are RO/AG's with the bolts removed, but I think probably at the factory making it hard to tell as the job has been so well done leaving no signs of the bolts.Hopefully one of the members will have an example to show us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Gordon Posted November 29, 2006 Share Posted November 29, 2006 Ta-da! B&N L marked and in tombac.Actually, I don't know if the bolts were removed at the factory or later but it has been skillfully done and no damage to the rest of the badge.I can take better pics if required but not until the week-end when there's natural light. Let me know.Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johannes post Posted November 29, 2006 Author Share Posted November 29, 2006 great rich !beautifull badge.would't you be so friendly too make a picture of the back(especially the bolts)and ofcourse from the eagel claws.regards johanTa-da! B&N L marked and in tombac.Actually, I don't know if the bolts were removed at the factory or later but it has been skillfully done and no damage to the rest of the badge.I can take better pics if required but not until the week-end when there's natural light. Let me know.Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janjan Posted November 29, 2006 Share Posted November 29, 2006 HiI thought de air gunner badge witout the blitz was for air mechanics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johannes post Posted November 29, 2006 Author Share Posted November 29, 2006 hallo janThe badge was awarded to air gunners, flight engineers, and aircrew meteorologists.groeten johanHiI thought de air gunner badge witout the blitz was for air mechanics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Gordon Posted November 29, 2006 Share Posted November 29, 2006 great rich !beautifull badge.would't you be so friendly too make a picture of the back(especially the bolts)and ofcourse from the eagel claws.regards johanOf course, but might have to wait until the week-end. OK?Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johannes post Posted November 29, 2006 Author Share Posted November 29, 2006 ofcourse rich.i am very glad about that pictures.regards johanOf course, but might have to wait until the week-end. OK?Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Temple-West Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 Nice set, Rich.Johan, is that Juncker 'SW68' marked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johannes post Posted November 30, 2006 Author Share Posted November 30, 2006 hello johnyes it is.regards johanNice set, Rich.Johan, is that Juncker 'SW68' marked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K. Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 (edited) JohanI have no other buntmetal Airgunner's badge in my collection other than this modified one!Steve Edited December 6, 2006 by Steve K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johannes post Posted November 30, 2006 Author Share Posted November 30, 2006 great badge stevewould't you be so kind to make a picture of the back.regards johanJohanI have no other buntmetal Airgunner's badge in my collection other than this modified one!Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Gordon Posted December 2, 2006 Share Posted December 2, 2006 (edited) JohanAs promised, here are a few better photos. You can see that the lightening-bolts have been very carefully removed.Rich Edited December 2, 2006 by Richard Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johannes post Posted December 2, 2006 Author Share Posted December 2, 2006 (edited) you are right richhere is my b & n l for compare with blitz.but have they ever made buntmetall airgunnerbadges without blitz(from a die).i think not.regards johanJohanAs promised, here are a few better photos. You can see that the lightening-bolts have been very carefully removed.Rich Edited December 2, 2006 by johannes post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Gordon Posted December 2, 2006 Share Posted December 2, 2006 here is my b & n l for compare with blitz.but have they ever made buntmetall airgunnerbadges without blitz(from a die).i think not.So far, I would agree with you.Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Temple-West Posted December 2, 2006 Share Posted December 2, 2006 ?From a die?? is the right question, Johan.Some thoughts before leaping into the car for an evening out. If we look at the timeframe for early buntmetal RO/AG-AG/FE badges we must assume that on the institution of the AG/FE badge, manufacturers must have had stocks of RO/AG badges, or at least the dies to produce more badges, if necessary. Around the date of the institution of the AG/FE badge (22nd June 1942) the problem with the acquisition of raw materials must have been taking hold and plans for the use of zinc, as well as dies for zinc series, would have been on the drawing board, so rather than producing a new set of dies for the short term, I?m sure makers would have found it more cost effective putting the workforce to work finishing existing RO/AG badges as AG/FE by removing the bolts during the finishing process. This would explain the nice job found on types such as Richards? and others I?ve seen of a similar quality. As for the others such as the one shown by Steve? On receiving the order, it must have been something like ?Has anyone got a pair of pliers?. To date I?ve not seen a buntmetal AG/FE badge that differed in its die pattern from its RO/AG counterpart. I suppose it?s possible that examples are out there in buntmetal that were produced from the dies intended for zincers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 Interesting topic here...I have been after a nice tomback Air Gunner's badge for a long time, but if they are simply Radio Operator's badges with the bolts removed, I may as well stick with my zincer. I suppose this then is the same scenario as the Spanish Cross in Silver without swords.Here is my AG by Assmann. A late war zincer, but still very nice!Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Gordon Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 Stan,Interesting badge! Is this not the same eagle as found on the Juncker/Deumer badge? Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Temple-West Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 Stan,Interesting badge! Is this not the same eagle as found on the Juncker/Deumer badge? RichClose, Rich. All zinc AG/FE badges look very similar. Another case of the makers working from the same designer's tech? drawings, me thinks.Juncker (left) Assmann (right) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 Stan,Interesting badge! Is this not the same eagle as found on the Juncker/Deumer badge? RichRich,You're right- it does look like a Deumer. Strange that the Unqualified Air Gunner's eagle by Assmann/ DRGM has a different style eagle.Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Temple-West Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 Stan,If you happen to have a set of digital callipers I would very much like to get some precise measurements of that 'DRGM' wreath. Height, width and thickness would be great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Gordon Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 Close, Rich. All zinc AG/FE badges look very similar. Another case of the makers working from the same designer's tech? drawings, me thinks.Juncker (left) Assmann (right)JohnThanks for the side-by-side comparison. Yes, I can see the minute differences now. I would agree with your assumption of using the same spec or the same die cutter made both (what is the possibility of the latter?).Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 Stan,If you happen to have a set of digital callipers I would very much like to get some precise measurements of that 'DRGM' wreath. Height, width and thickness would be great. John,I don't possess digital calipers but I have measured the DRGM wreath with the one's I have got. As you know, the edge of the wreath is shaped by the oakleaves and laurel leaves, so I have measured the widest and highest points. The measurements appear to be:HEIGHT 52mmWIDTH 41.5mmTHICKNESS 3.0mm, but tapers at the bottomWeight is 23.7gIf you or anyone else can let me know where digital calipers can be purchased in the UK, please PM me. Thanks.Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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