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    Hi Yankee

    Does his diarie state where he got the Wilhelms Order for? I cannot remember if the regiment he was in at the time (1850-1951) would have been part of the socalled Strafbayern who were involved in helping out the Kurf?rst von Hessen during the Verfassungskrise, but I guess that would be an option!

    Regards

    David

    Hi David

    The prior owner stated that he was awarded the badge in 1851 but without award document I could not understand how he came to that conclusion. Never questioned him further on that point , left it at that. Both his diaries are inscribed Schuch commandant to 3 Infanterie Regiment Prinz Carl Von Bayern ( other diary Christian name Michael as well ) . So these must be his war diaries for 1870 ( plenty of crosses next to names )for I do not see any other years entered only months and days. I think you hit the nail on the head, :beer: Bavaria intervention at that time and our man must have been there. Prussians were pissed off at this, almost blown to a full scale war. Thanks to you and Glenn for putting the pieces together in this puzzle.

    Sincerely grateful

    Yankee

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    Hi Yankee,

    I do not have picture of a 40 year service decoration but a correction to my first post. He was born in Regen and not Regensburg.

    Regards

    Glenn

    No worries thanks for all your kind help. I'm sure a 40 year service decoration will be a challenge to find especially from that time period.

    Sincerely

    Yankee

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    Hi David,

    I am curious: when the Knightscross of the Wilhelms Order is described as CHW4 in your book, is a 4th Class of this Order then mentioned as a CHW5?

    My guess:

    CHW1 Grandcross

    CHW2a CCI

    CHW2b CCII

    CHW3 Knight

    CHW4 4th Class

    Only four grades are listed:

    CWH1: Gro?kreutz

    CHW2: Commandeur 1. Classe

    CWH3: Commandeur 2. Classe

    CWH4: Ritter

    Regards

    Glenn

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    • 3 months later...

    Today the careerdetails arrived from Bavaria

    21.09.1851

    Michael Schuch geboren Regenau (Kreis Unterdonau) 02.09.1811, gestorben an den im Gefechte bei Orleans erlittenen Wunden Versailles 04.01.1871;

    27.07.1829 als Gemeiner im 4. Linien-Infanterie-Regiment ?Herzog von Sachsen-Altenburg? eingegangen, 01.09.1829 Vice-Korporal, 01.03.1830 Korporal, 01.06.1831 als Unterkannonier zum 2. Artillerie-Regiment versetzt, 15.06.1831 Cadeten-Achtung (?), 01.07.1831 Oberkannonier, 01.09.1831 Vize-Korporal, 01.01.1832 Korporal, 20.03.1835Versetzung als Junker im 6. Linien-Infanterie-Regiment ?Herzog Wilhelm?, 22.03.1836 Unterlieutenant im Infanterie-Regiment Lamotte, 15.12.1836 Versetzung zum Infanterie-Regiment Theobald, 14.02.1845 Bataillons-adjutant, 07.04.1847 Oberlieutenant, 18.07.1847 Regiments-Adjutant, 23.12.1849 Hauptmann 2. Classe, im 4. Infanterie-Regiment, 31.03.1855 Hauptmann 1. Classe, 11.12.1861 Major im 13. Infanterie-Regiment ?Kaiser Franz Joseph von ?sterreich?, 02.09.1862 6. Infanterie-Regiment ?K?nig Wilhelm von Preu?en?, 25.12.1867 Oberstlieutenant 8. Infanterie-Regiment vac. Senkendorff, 24.05.1868 Versetzung zum 6. Infanterie-Regiment ?K?nig Wilhelm von Preu?en?, 01.02.1870 Oberst und Commandeur des 3. Infanterie-Regiment ?Prinz Carl?.

    25.08.1865 Dienstalterzeichen f?r 24 Jahre, 27.06.1869 Dienstalterzeichen f?r 40 Jahre, 26.09.1870 II. Klasse des preussischen eisernen Kreuz, 01.11.1870 Ritterkreuz 1. Classe des bayrischen Milit?rverdienst-Ordens.

    I do have some questions

    1. What is Cadeten-Achtung (did I misread?)

    2. Why is he Vicekorporal and Korporal in Inafantry first and does he need to go through the same rank again in Artillery?

    3. What number did Regiment Lamotte have

    4. Same for Regiment Theobald

    5. What would the BMVO look like? Would anyone have pictures?

    Thanks

    David M

    Edited by David M
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    Today the careerdetails arrived from Bavaria

    21.09.1851

    Michael Schuch geboren Regenau (Kreis Unterdonau) 02.09.1811, gestorben an den im Gefechte bei Orleans erlittenen Wunden Versailles 04.01.1871;

    27.07.1829 als Gemeiner im 4. Linien-Infanterie-Regiment ?Herzog von Sachsen-Altenburg? eingegangen, 01.09.1829 Vice-Korporal, 01.03.1830 Korporal, 01.06.1831 als Unterkannonier zum 2. Artillerie-Regiment versetzt, 15.06.1831 Cadeten-Achtung (?), 01.07.1831 Oberkannonier, 01.09.1831 Vize-Korporal, 01.01.1832 Korporal, 20.03.1835Versetzung als Junker im 6. Linien-Infanterie-Regiment ?Herzog Wilhelm?, 22.03.1836 Unterlieutenant im Infanterie-Regiment Lamotte, 15.12.1836 Versetzung zum Infanterie-Regiment Theobald, 14.02.1845 Bataillons-adjutant, 07.04.1847 Oberlieutenant, 18.07.1847 Regiments-Adjutant, 23.12.1849 Hauptmann 2. Classe, im 4. Infanterie-Regiment, 31.03.1855 Hauptmann 1. Classe, 11.12.1861 Major im 13. Infanterie-Regiment ?Kaiser Franz Joseph von ?sterreich?, 02.09.1862 6. Infanterie-Regiment ?K?nig Wilhelm von Preu?en?, 25.12.1867 Oberstlieutenant 8. Infanterie-Regiment vac. Senkendorff, 24.05.1868 Versetzung zum 6. Infanterie-Regiment ?K?nig Wilhelm von Preu?en?, 01.02.1870 Oberst und Commandeur des 3. Infanterie-Regiment ?Prinz Carl?.

    25.08.1865 Dienstalterzeichen f?r 24 Jahre, 27.06.1869 Dienstalterzeichen f?r 40 Jahre, 26.09.1870 II. Klasse des preussischen eisernen Kreuz, 01.11.1870 Ritterkreuz 1. Classe des bayrischen Milit?rverdienst-Ordens.

    I do have some questions

    1. What is Cadeten-Achtung (did I misread?)

    2. Why is he Vicekorporal and Korporal in Inafantry first and does he need to go through the same rank again in Artillery?

    3. What number did Regiment Lamotte have

    4. Same for Regiment Theobald

    5. What would the BMVO look like? Would anyone have pictures?

    Thanks

    David M

    Hi David

    Great job :beer:

    Curious about his entry into the army. He started off as a private and worked his way all the way up to commander of a regiment. As I recall in the English army that would be a very difficult feat to accomplish to go from enlisted man to officer at that period in time. Was it also as difficult in the German States to raise yourself from private to officer during the mid 19th century, If so he must have been a very accomplished fellow. Thanks

    Sincerely

    Brian

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    Hi Brian

    I only know 1 other example (remember I am no expert in this) it involved a nassovian (did I just invent that word for someone from the Duchy of Nassau, like the sound of it anyway :-). He became a Hauptmann and started of as Gemeiner. It took him some decades :-)

    Will ask the bavarians if there is any chance of a picture of Schuch. Anything post 1851 would be great for my own research aswell.

    Will keep you posted.

    David M

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    David,

    1. I am assuming in this context that "Achtung" means the status or standing of a Cadet, i.e. the respect or regard entitled to one holding that appointment.

    2. As an officer aspirant he would have spent time in the various junior NCO ranks of his chosen arm as part of his training. On transfer to the artillery it was probably considered that his previous junior NCO service in the infantry was insufficient and he briefly had to gain experience in those ranks in his new arm of service.

    3. Lamotte = 11. I.R.

    4. Theobald = 4. I.R.

    Brian,

    It was normal for aspirant officers (unless they took the cadet school route) to enter their regiment of choice as private soldiers and serve as junior NCOS until appointed (in the Bavarian Army) to the rank of Junker before commissioning.

    Regards

    Glenn

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    Hi Glenn

    Great information to know. Never knew that, certainly a good path to allow oneself to be recognized on merit and not just class. I was amazed to learn that Michael schuch did receive other orders & decorations shortly before his death. In November 1870 he recived his ( career details ) Bavarian MVO Knight 1st class. Would it be safe to assume that the award would have been with swords since it was issued during the war & he was directly involved in the fighting. Would the same also hold true for his Prussian Crown award to be with swords too? . Please excuse if the question seems naive, Bavarian MVO is already a military order, just don't know what further deeds are needed to be awarded with swords. Thanks

    Sincerely

    Brian

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    Hi Glenn

    Great information to know. Never knew that, certainly a good path to allow oneself to be recognized on merit and not just class. I was amazed to learn that Michael schuch did receive other orders & decorations shortly before his death. In November 1870 he recived his ( career details ) Bavarian MVO Knight 1st class. Would it be safe to assume that the award would have been with swords since it was issued during the war & he was directly involved in the fighting. Would the same also hold true for his Prussian Crown award to be with swords too? . Please excuse if the question seems naive, Bavarian MVO is already a military order, just don't know what further deeds are needed to be awarded with swords. Thanks

    Sincerely

    Brian

    Here is the announcement of his award:

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    Hi Dave

    That is a great surprise, amazed to see the award list from a newspaper I think and in such fine condition after all these years. Thanks ever so much for the time in locating his awards :jumping::jumping: really great marvel to see. Ohhh gosh misread :speechless: his Prussian award thanks for bringing that to my attention.

    Sincerely

    Brian

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    In such a hurry to post the extracts from the Verordnungsblatt that I forgot to address the main question.

    All awards during the Franco-Prussian War were without swords. Swords were not authorized for the Bavarian MVO until 1891.

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    Wow that is really great info, must have one fantastic research library :beer: Thanks Dave

    Later came across the case to the Wilhelm Knight and to my surprise it is not a solid fit or even close :banger: . I closely examined the case to make sure it was for the Wilhelm order. The shape ( arms ) is correct, inner silk pad has the impression of the order and the Lion standing on two legs. Where the trouble is that every Wilhelm I have ever seen has always a oval center, the inside of the case is made for a circular center. Does any member have a foto of this variation to post or can explain.

    Sincerely

    Yankee

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    Wow that is really great info, must have one fantastic research library :beer: Thanks Dave

    Later came across the case to the Wilhelm Knight and to my surprise it is not a solid fit or even close :banger: . I closely examined the case to make sure it was for the Wilhelm order. The shape ( arms ) is correct, inner silk pad has the impression of the order and the Lion standing on two legs. Where the trouble is that every Wilhelm I have ever seen has always a oval center, the inside of the case is made for a circular center. Does any member have a foto of this variation to post or can explain.

    Sincerely

    Yankee

    They (both 3rd and 4th Class are supposed to be oval (no photo's to show alas, just what I know from the Statuten).....so I guess it is another box?

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    They (both 3rd and 4th Class are supposed to be oval (no photo's to show alas, just what I know from the Statuten).....so I guess it is another box?

    The case at one time belonged to Eric Ludvigsen and believed to have been for the Golden Lion or Wilhelm Order.

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    • 2 months later...

    Hello Gentlemen

    Today received a much awaited foto of Oberst Schuch from the Bavarian State Archives. Now I can rest and put a most aristocratic face on this group. I'd like to thank Dave Danner & Glenn J for their kind help :beer: . A special word of thanks to David M for walking me through the process of obtaining a foto without his help my quest would merely be a dream :beer: . If you will notice on the foto Oberst Schuch has three orders and the Iron Cross 2nd class. Now I am confused as I understand he only recived two orders the MVO Knight 1st class & William Knight. This I can identify on his tunic. Can the one in the center be a long service decoration ( seems to have crown ) or what can it be?

    Sincerely

    Yankee

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