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Guest Darrell

DRL without Swastika

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Guest Darrell

Here is my collection of Bronze, Silver and Gold DRL badges without Swastika. Time frame 1934 thru 1937.

Bronze (non Cutout letters):

D.R.L._Sports_Badge_in_Bronze___Pre_1937___Obverse.JPG

 

Edited by speedytop
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Guest Darrell

Bronze Rev.

D.R.L._Sports_Badge_in_Bronze___Pre_1937___Reverse.JPG

 

Edited by speedytop
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Guest Darrell

Silver (non cutout letters):

D.R.L._Sports_Badge_in_Silver___Not_Cut_Out___Pre_1937___Obverse2.JPG

 

Edited by speedytop
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Guest Darrell

Silver Rev.

D.R.L._Sports_Badge_in_Silver___Not_Cut_Out___Pre_1937___Reverse2.JPG

 

Edited by speedytop
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Guest Darrell

Silver (Cutout Letters):

D.R.L._Sports_Badge_in_Silver___Pre_1937___Obverse.JPG

 

Edited by speedytop
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Guest Darrell

Silver Rev:

D.R.L._Sports_Badge_in_Silver___Pre_1937___Reverse.JPG

 

Edited by speedytop

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Guest Darrell

Gold (non Cutout Letters):

D.R.L._Sports_Badge_in_Gold___Not_Cut_Out___Pre_1937___Obverse.JPG

 

Edited by speedytop

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Hi Darrell,

I think, this is the wrong section, because these badges are made post WWII, and not 1934 thru 1937.

Regards

Uwe

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Not in my experience. The "M1957" versions used the M1937 die with swastika ground down and recut as part of the bow-- but leaving the distinct top point ^ of the erased and recut swastika still sticking up between the loops of the bow. That was gone into at another website several years ago. I don't have the scans and would not repost somebody else's anyway.

These are apparently low-bidder "B-St?cke" churned out at the peak of mass awards around the time of the Olympics. I no longer have any, but did from when I was a kid 40 years ago playing with G.I. souvenirs. Oddly enough, the most common grade seems to be the silver. I had never seen a bronze one before Darrell's.

Golds of course are in a category alllllll by themselves.

My only interest in Third Reich is as a continuation of careers from Imperial times, but I am sure that there must be photos of young'uns wearing these in mid 1930s photographs.

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This statement was brought to our attention on WAF a while back, with little or nothing in response. I'm certain Uwe will fill us in on the details, but as far as I'm concerned I find it very plausible, regardless of what all publications will tell us.

KR

Peter

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Hi Peter,

"...with little or nothing in response..."

there are some new posts:

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...8399&page=2

post 24 thru 26, very interesting! :D

Hi Rick,

I'm sorry, but there is something incorrect.

It is difficult, to find exact official figures for awards of the sports badges.

This is one of my statements on WAF:

Approxiamately 480 000 DRA badges for men and women had been awarded.

Approxiamately 1 000 000 DRL badges with swastika for men and women had been awarded.

Exact 0 DRL badges without a swastika had been awarded.

And this is another statement:

Statement of a member:

" ?All reference books, German or English, regardless of how badly they mangle the actual requirements, know and show that. rolleyesold.gif ?

Uwe:

Let us throw a look at some of these books:

Littlejohn/Dodkins 1970:

? The version with D.R.A. was the first type, this was superseeded by the D.R.L. without a swastika type which in 1937 was succeeded by the last and most common type, the D.R.L. with a swastika.?

The picture on page 85 show the DRL w/o swastika, but with the ?tip?.

That is wrong twice; no change in 1937, the picture shows a post war version.

Klietmann 1971, vol. 1 and 2.:

Page 290: It is wrong, that the DRL w/o swastika have maker marks HENSLER, WERNSTEIN and WAGNER, that is only for DRL with swastika.

The picture in vol. 2 shows a post war version.

Angolia 1978, vol. 2:

Twice a wrong statement:

The document shown on page 236 in the above described book is produced in 1935, exactly in Juli 1935.

You can see it, in the footnote bottom left: 5000. 7. 35. 45.

5000 (the correct number is irrelevant, it could be 8000) paper documents had been produced in July 1935, and I think, that 45. stands for the producer, but that is irrelevant too.

The first document with DRL I found in the Carl-Diem-Archive in Cologne is marked: 10000 4. 35. 13., produced in April 1935, naturally with the swastika.

The last documents with DRA I found, in my own collection and in the Carl-Diem-Archive, are marked 3000. 9. 34. 71 (for women) and 20000. 8. 34. 63. (for men). The end for DRA documents in September 1934.

And now anyone must declare me, in the perfect organized german state, how it is possible, to have thousands and thousands of badges, but no matching document?

I have searched in several folders in the Carl-Diem-Archiv, in many hundred documents in the era 1934, 1935 and later.

No document with a note for a DRL without the swastika!

I have searched in books, in newspapers, in encyclopedias, in codes of law and other publications.

Not at any time I found a hint for the contemporary existence of the DRL badge without the swastika in the time between 1933 and 1945.

Since 1935 you can find original awarded DRA documents with awarded DRL badges with swastika, the old documents were used up several years.

The name of the badge changed 1934 from "Deutsches Turn- und Sportabzeichen" into "Deutsches Reichs-Sportabzeichen", later on it changed to "Reichssportabzeichen".

At first DRL stand for "Deutscher Reichsbund f?r Leibes?bungen", later on it changed (1937) to "Deutsche Reichsauszeichnung f?r Leibes?bungen".

Forman?s 1988:

Page 188: ? D.R.A. Sports Badges c. 1933 (Deutsches Reichsabzeichen f?r Leibes?bungen)?

Both is wrong, it changed 1934/1935, and the name of the badge changed 1934 from "Deutsches Turn- und Sportabzeichen" into "Deutsches Reichs-Sportabzeichen".

The picture Nr. 226 shows a post war version.

Klietmann 1990 ?Staatlich-zivile Auszeichnungen?:

The same wrong picture with the DRL w/o swastika on page 97, picture description idiotic (sorry); ?Deutsches Turn- und Sportabzeichen ? DRL in der Ausf?hrung von 1919.?

1919 !!!!!!

No dates of changing the versions, why not? I think, he did not know it.

Niemann (Detlev) 2004:

The picture on page 353 shows a post war version.

Cloth versions ?? I have never seen one, and if it exists, it is post war.

Entry in the Award Booklet ?? I have never seen one, never!

Kind regards

Uwe

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Found this in Meyers Enzyklop?disches Lexikon:

File0136_cr.jpg

it stats that the Deutscher Reichsausschuss f?r Leibes?bungen (DRA) was created in 1917 from the 1895 founded Deutscher Reichsausschuss f?r die Olympischen Spiele. It was abolished in 1933 and the new Organisation was then called Deutscher Reichsbund f?r Leibes?bungen (DRL). Then from 1938 to 1945 it was changed once again to Nazionalsozialistischer Reichsbund f?r Leibes?bungen (NSRL)

Edited by Naxos

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Hi.

we must make a distinction between the sport organization, the responsible organization for the awards and the name of the sports badge.

1933:

Deutscher Reichsausschuss f?r Leibes?bungen (DRA)

Deutsches Turn- und Sportabzeichen, Auszeichnung des Deutschen Reichsausschusses (DRA)

1934:

Deutscher Reichsbund f?r Leibes?bungen (DRL)

Deutsches Reichs-Sportabzeichen, Auszeichnung des Deutschen Reichsbundes f?r Leibes?bungen (DRA)

1935:

Deutscher Reichsbund f?r Leibes?bungen (DRL)

Deutsches Reichs-Sportabzeichen, Auszeichnung des Deutschen Reichsbundes f?r Leibes?bungen (DRL with swastika)

1936:

Reichssportamt, Deutscher Reichsbund f?r Leibes?bungen (DRL)

Reichs-Sportabzeichen, Auszeichnung des Deutschen Reichsbundes f?r Leibes?bungen (DRL with swastika)

1937:

Reichssportamt, Deutscher Reichsbund f?r Leibes?bungen (DRL)

Reichssportabzeichen, Deutsche Reichsauszeichnung f?r Leibes?bungen (DRL with swastika)

1938:

Reichssportamt, Nazionalsozialistischer Reichsbund f?r Leibes?bungen (NSRL)

Reichssportabzeichen, Deutsche Reichsauszeichnung f?r Leibes?bungen (DRL with swastika)

Regards

Uwe

Edited by speedytop

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Thank you Uwe for your patience in clarifying this subject.

Because of the poor overall quality of the DRL badges w/o swastika (no ^ over the ribbon bow), combined with the fact that there is no photo-evidence in the 1933 to 1938 time period of a non Hakenkreuz DRL badge being worn, I accept that the DRL w/o swastika must be post 1945.

Regards, Hardy

Edited by Naxos

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Guest Darrell

...combined with the fact that there is no photo-evidence in the 1933 to 1938 time period of a non Hakenkreuz DRL badge being worn, I accept that the DRL w/o swastica must be post 1945.

Regards, Hardy

That's what they said about the Retired Pilot's badge. Very dangerous assumptions. You can theorize all you want, but that's all it is. Until someone shows me "hard" evidence that they are post '45 I'm a believer.

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Darrell,

yes an assumption I agree but not a dangerous one and subject to change.

See, I do not have an DRL w/o HK and based on my assumption I will not buy one until evidence supporting that DRL's w/o HK were worn appears. This way I will not loose any money or sleep. In your case, you will not give your DRL badges away (and neither would I) based on a theory that I accept.

:off topic: I have a home-made KURLAND cuff title, a rather ugly thing - it was taken of a moth hole ridden tunic in the 80s. The tunic then was thrown in the M?ll (garbage). I wish I kept at least the whole sleeve, but in those days one only kept good looking stuff. :banger: I did keep the cuff title, there is just something about it but no one besides me likes it. The only provenance I had, I destroyed :speechless: It will always remain in my collection and I :love: it.

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=12437

Regards, Hardy :beer:

Edited by Naxos

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The only picture I have of a DRL badge wearer. Oberstfeldmeister Becker of the RAD

cluster3_cr.jpg

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Interesting! I've just been over to Helmut Weitze's website-- the only place I know of with a variety of the award booklets--

and sure enough, there are a couple of DRA booklets with awards made in 1935 and 1936. Then there is a gap, and 1938+ award books with the DRL-swastika design.

Soooooo....

using up outdated papers with the wrong design certainly happened, sometimes.

Hmmmm. :speechless1: My "ultimate authority" was never the English language sources, but the late Dr. K-G Klietmann. I xeroxed pages out of one of his 1960s books (before he had turned completely to The Dark Side and his information was normally reliable-- as long as he wasn't selling "German Orders" and "Lorient" and "Warschau" shields) and HE showed the DRL-no swastika

classified in his typology as

Jc 9 21 22/221/222/223 (if that helps anybody identify which book it was) between DRA and DRL with swastika

BUT :speechless1: the illustration he shows has the ^ which I had never noticed before! :banger:

Also, Niemann's "Bewertungskatalog" (I am looking at a borrowed copy) ALSO has the DRL without swastika listed--

and shows the ^ :speechless1: badge, obverse only -- as well as prices for DRL-no swastika award booklets-- from which one would naturally assume that there ARE award booklets.

Now you have made me doubt the Collective Wisdom of the 1960s generation.

I need clear portrait photos which are datable IN THEMSELVES by styles of uniforms, showing DRL swastika badges worn BEFORE 1937. Obviously we'll get no joy from the PAPERWORK.

Then I will believe! :speechless1: I only have wartime photos which are of course with swastika.

None of Darrell's badges have the ^ which I have always presumed indicated the M1957s.

Doubts are now in my mind. Hmmm. Have I been wrong for 40 years? Has everybody been wrong except Uwe? THAT COULD BE.

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There might be another way to find out for sure.

I looked up Sportabzeichen in the Brockhaus Lexikon of 1923 and found this:File0137.jpg

Perhaps someone could look up Sportabzeichen, Deutsches Reichs-Leistungsabzeichen or Reichs-Sportabzeichen in a German Lexikon of 1934, 35. 36, or 37 Edition. If it shows a picture it should be.....?

Hardy

Edited by Naxos

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Hi Darrell,

"Until someone shows me "hard" evidence that they are post '45 I'm a believer."

It is not a problem, to show you a sales catalouge out of the 50's/60's, where you can find these badges, with and without the tip. Both in one catalogue.

But I think, that is the wrong way.

I cannot prove things, which never existed.

But if you are a believer, then show me "hard" evidence, that they are pre 1945.

Why are all these badges without maker marks??

Do you think, Wernstein, Lauer, Wagner, Kohm, Petz, Lorenz & Reichenbach and others are not interested, to show their name? Why that?

Do you really think, that the award documents show the swastika, and the badges not? Why?

Much more than 100,000 awards in the years 1935 thru 1937, and no matching award document? Why?

No picture for much more than 100,000 awards? Why?

Regards

Uwe

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Hi Hardy,

out of post 12:

" I have searched in several folders in the Carl-Diem-Archiv, in many hundred documents in the era 1934, 1935 and later.

No document with a note for a DRL without the swastika!

I have searched in books, in newspapers, in encyclopedias, in codes of law and other publications.

Not at any time I found a hint for the contemporary existence of the DRL badge without the swastika in the time between 1933 and 1945."

And I have several german lexicons and hundreds of books from this time.

The Carl-Diem-Archiv in Cologne is the central place for documents about sport, sport badges and award documents in Germany.

Regards

Uwe

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Hi Rick,

I'm not alone with that opinion.

J?rg Nimmergut deleted the price rating for this badges some years before.

I recognized that after my first doubts.

This is the fourth forum, where I post it.

Nobody could present a primary source out of this time, with a reference to a badge DRL without swastika.

Regards

Uwe

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Foolishly, perhaps, I always took every printed source being in agreement for conclusive.

It seems REALLY odd since the equestrian sports badges never changed from their Weimar "R" to a swastika at all!!!!

When DID a DRL with swastika REPLACE the DRA? Were DRAs given until 1936? 1937? Faced with "wrong design" paperwork, where does that leave us?

There is STILL a data void about precisely when the transition might have occurred.

I am retreating back into the World of DRA, where only street addresses matter. :rolleyes:

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Brain turning to mush.

OBVIOUS way to "date" any change is by the D.R.G.M. trademark registration numbers:

DRA_n_DRLwS_DRGM_33918_n_35269_x400_cus.JPG

Whatever it is called these days, the German Patents & Trademarks Office must have a registry of ALL previous numbers and when issued, or they would not be able to add NEW ones.

Soooo:

Wernstein DRA bears Number 33918 NOT found on the earliest Marcus made pieces...

and when was Number 35269 registered for the DRL with swastika design?

 

Edited by speedytop
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