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Guest Darrell

DRL without Swastika

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Hi Rick,

"and when was Number 35269 registered for the DRL with swastika design?"

I don't know, but that is irrelevant.

This number 35269 changed from 33918 in the era of the DRA badges.

DRA Wernstein Jena-L?bstedt D.R.G.M 33918:

DRA_33918.jpg

 

 

Edited by speedytop
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DRL Wernstein Jena D.R.G.M 35269:

DRL_35269.jpg

Regards

Uwe

 

 

Edited by speedytop
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"When DID a DRL with swastika REPLACE the DRA?"

The text in a book, written 1988 by experts (J?rgen Buschmann and Karl Lennartz) from the "Carl-Diem-Archiv an der Deutschen Sporthochschule K?ln", book title "75 Jahre Deutsches Sportabzeichen", page 60:

"Die Initialen wurden erst 1935 von DRA (Deutscher Reichsausschu?) in DRL (Deutscher Reichsbund f?r Leibes?bungen) ge?ndert. Auf der Bandschleife wurde ein Hakenkreuz angebracht."

Rough translation:

Changing the initials from DRA to DRL in 1935 and placing a swastika on the loop.

Look for Karl Lennartz and J?rgen Buschmann:

http://www.google.de/search?q=%22Karl+Lenn...;client=firefox

Chances are that several DRA badges were given in 1935, to use up the rest.

But in 1935 the first badges DRL with swastika were given, definitely.

The award documents DRA were used several years later, similarly to use up the rest, especially the documents for repetition.

One example for one man:

Award document booklet for Bronze, printed in May 1934 (bottom 5.34.)

DRA_1934_01.jpg

Award Bronze 21.12.1934:

DRA_1934_03.jpg

 

 

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Award document booklet (small version for repetitions, 4 pages) for Silber, printed December 1933 (12.33.), in-box 30.11.1938:

DRA_1939_01.jpg

Award Silber 21.01.1939, stuck into the award document booklet for Bronze:

DRA_1939_02.jpg

Regards

Uwe

 

 

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"This number 35269 changed from 33918 in the era of the DRA badges."

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

I hate it when easy solutions don't work out! :banger::cheeky:

OK, DEFINITELY still DRA in May 1934 from that paperwork dated then:

DRA_award_sheet_TITLE_changed_DESIGN_same_dated_May_1934_printing_speedytop_GMIC.jpg

and that proves that the TITLE of the badge HAD changed while the design was still the same. :cheers:

So, now, like Saint Thomas.... let's find some dated design paperwork from the Data Black Hole period 1935-36, or clear photos in wear of uniformed wear DRL with swastikas BEFORE 1937.

This is quite interesting, though I don't know at my age if I just shut down the parts of my brain where the Old Knowledge was stored if I will be able to find my way home from the supermarket any more. :speechless1:

 

 

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Hi Rick,

this document is from Mai 1935.

The earliest DRL award document booklet I have seen in the CARL-Diem-Archiv ist dated 4.35, April 1935.

DRA_1935_01.jpg

"I am retreating back into the World of DRA, where only street addresses matter."

My suggestion: change to german sport badges 1948 - 1952, before the sport badge DSB.

You can find there sport badges with DSA, BSA, LSA and SLA. And sport badges DRL without swastika. :D

Regards

Uwe

 

 

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The posting of the above document makes this discussion conclusive.

Hallo Uwe,

vielen Dank f?r deine ?usserst interessanten und aufschlussreichen Beitr?ge, wie schon erw?hnt habe ich hier zum Thema DRA/DRL mehr erfahren als in meinen zwanzig Sammlerjahren.

Besonders bedanke ich mich f?r deine Zeit und Geduld, dieses umstrittene Thema ein-f?r-allemal und ohne Zweifel (zumindest f?r mich) zu kl?ren.

Mit freundlichem Gruss, Hardy

Edited by Naxos

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Hi Rick,

"My suggestion: change to german sport badges 1948 - 1952, before the sport badge DSB.

You can find there sport badges with DSA, BSA, LSA and SLA. And sport badges DRL without swastika."

At the same time, when the DRL without swastika werde made, you could find in reality several other sport badges. Here are the minis:

Deutsches Sportabzeichen DSA (1948 - 1952)

Mini_DSA.jpg

Landes-Sportabzeichen LSA (1949 - 1952)

Mini_LSA.jpg

Bundes-Sportabzeichen BSA (1949 - 1952)

Mini_BSA.jpg

Sport-Leistungs-Abzeichen SLA (Bavaria 1949 - 2007)

Mini_SLA.jpg

Deutsches Sportabzeichen DSB (1952 - 2006)

Mini_DSB.jpg

Regards

Uwe

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Uwe, have you noticed the document on page 236 in Angolia's "For F?hrer ..." , 2nd vol.?

KR

Peter

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For those without the book, that is a JULY 1935 printed form with the DRL with Swastika badge design up top. I am embarassed to say that I NOTED that when the book came out and did not draw the obvious conclusion. THAT is how little attention these badges get over here. :speechless::banger:

OK, OK, I am now converted to the Uwe Cult. NO questions. NO doubts.

Thanks for your persistence, Uwe! :cheers:

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Rick, I'm equally embarassed, it was right under our noses all the time :rolleyes: . BUT, the document in Angolia's book doesn't make sense to me. The fact that it's a hybrid of the documents in post #30 and #32 can possibly be explained, but how can a 19 year old guy qualify for a silver version, unless he made his first test at the age of 11? Or am I missing something essential :unsure:

Uwe, hats off for you :beer:

KR

Peter

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Hi Peter, hi Rick,

so much compliments :blush:

Thank you.

Peter,

first, the pictures on the top of page 234 are irritating, better, wrong.

Left is shown the obverse of a DRL with swastika (with tip), the other picture show the reverse of an original DRL with swastika. That could not match, because there were different needles.

Second, please look for page 236 in post 12, Angolia.

Third, it is not an award, it is only a repetition (Wiederholung). All the 4 pages are shown.

He gained Bronze in 1934, 18 years old. In 1935 he tried, to make his first repetition, but it is not finished. He does not met the conditions for group (Gruppe) 4. And there is, logical, no attestation (Bescheinigung).

When he had fulfilled all the 5 exercises, he could get the attestation for his first repetition. For silver he had to fulfill this in 6 years with 6 further repetitions.

The text belonging to the pictures is partly wrong.

Regards

Uwe

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Thanks for your patience with me :)

Several years ago a german collecter wrote an article about the DRL without swastika in the german journal of the BDOS e.V. Bund Deutscher Ordenssammler Deutsche Gesellschaft f?r Ordenskunde e.V. (Society of German medal collectors).

He did not show the picture, but he stated, that there is a DRL sports badge without swastika in the Third Reich, between DRA and DRL with swastika.

Than he described a sport badge from Wernstein Jena without a swastika, and the swastika was not filed off. It was made in this design original in the dies, no POW denazified it, no jewelers hand work.

I have never seen this piece.

But in my collection I found a piece he described, original stamped.

Wernstein Jena D.R.G.M. 35269. No swastika, nothing over-worked.

First I will show you two over-worked pieces.

You can find many thausands of it, all different.

DRL_POW_01.jpg

DRL_POW_02.jpg

 

 

 

 

Edited by speedytop
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But now, a closeup view:

reverse, all is perfect

DRL_closeup_R.jpg

averse: it is over-worked, but in the die! And you can see a part of a swastika! A post war modification in the tools.

DRL_closeup_A.jpg

No DRL without swastika 1934, 1935, 1936 or 1937.

post war!

Regards

Uwe

 

 

Edited by speedytop
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Interesting! If possible I for one would appreciate seeing some of the post war catalogs showing all these different sports badges.

Regards,--dj--Joe

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Hi Joe,

which different sports badges do you mean, and which sort of catalogs?

Regards

Uwe

Edited by speedytop

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Uwe, do any of the post war catalogs show the DRA badges for sale? I would not mind seeing examples that show the DRL along with whatever came right after I believe it was DSA and LSA.

I am not sure which catalogs to inquire about, St.&L. for one. Others?

Regards, --dj--Joe

Edited by --dj--Joe

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I have only a few sales catalogs, the earliest is from 1956, the next from 1957/58.

The 1956 catalog (Sedlatzek) is without pictures, but with the handwritten hint, all originals as awarded!

All in good quality!

It is the time direct before the "Ordensgesetz" in 1957.

Sedlatzek_Original.jpg

As awarded is for the sports badges DRL with swastika.

Sedlatzek_Sportabzeichen.jpg

 

 

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The catalog from 19657/1958 (R?stkammer Assmanshausen) show two pictures of the DRL without swastika.

The first with the tip (?), together with 1957 versions.

The second without the tip, together with other post war products.

I have never seen a DRA in post war catalogs.

But in this catalog you can find a sports badge BSA, awarded 1949 - 1952!

Regards

Uwe

R_stkammer_01.jpg

R_stkammer_11.jpg

R_stkammer_29.jpg

 

 

 

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Hello Uwe,

:off topic:

the catalog is from 1956, and the Ritterkreuz is statet as "wie verliehen" (as awarded) does that mean that they sold the a Knights Cross with swastika?

re there any pictures of the Ritterkreuz in the catalog?

Thanks, Hardy

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