Jump to content
Guest Darrell

DRL without Swastika

Recommended Posts

Hallo Hardy,

yes, all the salesmen as Erich Beinhorn, Friedrich Sedlatzek, Fahnen-Fleck, Die Ordenssammlung, Rudolf Souval Wien, et cetera, et cetera sold the Third Reich decorations with swastika before 1957.

You can find several of these decorations as originals in many collections :D

Till 1957 there was no other design!

Sorry, no pictures in that catalog.

Regards

Uwe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Uwe, thank you. Here is why I wondered about DRA badges.

Obverse. 111.JPG

--dj--Joe

Edited by speedytop

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Reverse. 1111.JPG I have never been positive as to the age of these examples.

The number partially hidden by the pin is 34815.

--dj--Joe

Edited by speedytop

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Uwe, shame on me. :blush: I remember reading that thread, clean forgot you had posted an example.

Thank you,--dj--Joe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And now one is in my collection! :D

The small badge is from July 1935, I think, produced earlier in May or June.

It shows the sports badge DRL with swastika.

Gaufest_1935_Bremen_DRL.jpg

31.6mm x 45.1mm

Regards

Uwe

Edited by speedytop

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

it is about time, to post some more information :D

Darrell:

"Here is my collection of Bronze, Silver and Gold DRL badges without Swastika. Time frame 1934 thru 1937."

"Until someone shows me "hard" evidence that they are post '45 I'm a believer."

And now for the last(?) unbeliever:

Some new (old) books I found very interesting, a lexikon from 1935 and one from 1937, "Der Volks-Brockhaus"

Both are the 4th edition, but one with the year 1935 and the other with the year 1937:

And I think, that the lexikon with 1935 is really from 1935, with the introduction of Mr. Brockhaus from "Herbst 1935" (fall/autumn 1935).

GM_001.jpg

From 1935 to 1937 only some changes, mostly for persons, some other interesting modifications for the Nazis.

1st: Munic (M?nchen)

In August 1935 Hitler nominated Munic to the "Capital of the Movement" (Hauptstadt der Bewegung).

In the lexikon from 1935 Munic is the "normal" capital of Bavaria, later it is the "Hauptstadt der Bewegung".

And it was so important for the Nazis, that they added this title very quick, especial in Munic:

GM_002.jpg

Edited by speedytop

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2nd: Hermann G?ring

In 1935 he is in the rank of a "General der Flieger".

In 1936 (20. Apr. 1936) he promoted to the rank "Generaloberst".

And that was important not only for G?ring.

GM_003.jpg

GM_004.jpg

Edited by speedytop

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And now let us have a look on the picture and the description for the sports badge (Sportabzeichen):

Here in 1935 it is still the antiquated name "Deutscher Reichsausschuss f?r Leibes?bungen", but the new design, DRL with swastika.

Antiquated, because the name of the organization already changed in 1934 to "Deutscher Reichsbund f?r Leibes?bungen (DRL)", see the lexikon from 1937.

And now the unbeliever(s) must explain it :rolleyes: :

It is definitely before 1936 (Time frame 1934 thru 1937).

I think, that everybody can accept now, that it is not only before 1937, it is definitely in 1935.

There is no time frame for a DRL without the swastika.

Regards

Uwe

I beg your pardon for my bad English.

Edited by Chairman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There might be another way to find out for sure.

Perhaps someone could look up Sportabzeichen, Deutsches Reichs-Leistungsabzeichen or Reichs-Sportabzeichen in a German Lexikon of 1934, 35. 36, or 37 Edition. If it shows a picture it should be.....?

Hardy

Thank you Uwe

Hardy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This has been an amazing discussion with lots of information. I have my "2 cents" to add with a slightly different take. There is no post war evidence of wear of the DRL without the swaz just as there are no pre war photos either. The only DRL without the swaz that has a maker mark appears to have been produced from a reworked die and appears to be an anomaly among the no swaz DRLs out there as the vast majority have no maker mark. These without maker mark appear also not to have been manufactured from a reworked die.

Another fact of the DRL without swaz is that a large number do not have the letters cut out and are essentially unfinished. Based on these observations I had always assumed that the DRL without the swaz was quickly instituted to replace the DRL. A number were manufactured. Some were finished out, most were not due to the fact that the powers that be decided to add a swastika to the design. So the DRL without the swastika was scrapped in mid production. A failed design that never made it past production stage to the awarding stage accounting for the large number of unfinished badges out there and the fact that none have ever been seen in any period photographs either before or after the war.

For Rick R. You mentioned that the silver DRL without swaz seems to be the most common. I have found that to be the opposite in my searches, with the bronze and even gold easier to find than the silver.

Richard V

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting. I must say that in my forays into this area I have noticed 3 unswastikaed badges for every one with a swaz. As my "hunting patch" is ex- vet bringback stuff, almost all located in yard sales etc.. I wonder if this says something about wartime availability.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Richard V,

"Based on these observations I had always assumed that the DRL without the swaz was quickly instituted to replace the DRL."

When and for whom? Do you mean, to replace the DRA?

"... a large number do not have the letters cut out and are essentially unfinished."

The badges were complete finished, with a complete needle.

DRL_wo_tip.jpg

 

"Some were finished out, most were not due to the fact that the powers that be decided to add a swastika to the design."

To add to which design? Please explain me the time line of the DRL without the swastika, but with the "tip" ^.

"There is no post war evidence of wear of the DRL without the swaz just as there are no pre war photos either."

I cannot show period pictures of a DRL without swastika in the time frame 1934 - 1945, but I can e.g. present you pictures in post WW II catalogues of these sports badges without the swastika.

Regards

Uwe

Edited by speedytop

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi student,

very interesting!

Please see Post 42 - 44, and:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=20883&hl=

The materiel from the swastika is complete removed and the rest is very good formed!

I assume, that the badge is very thin at the marked postion, if you compare it with an DRL with swastika?

DRL_thin.jpg

Regards

Uwe

Edited by speedytop

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Ulsterman,

do you differentiate between DRA and DRL, or do you really mean DRL?

DRA sports badges are categorical without a swastika.

A DRL without the swastika was not available in wartime.

Some soldiers wore in wartime the DRA badge and not the DRL with swastika.

Regards

Uwe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh I mean DRL. Looking closely I note that most seem to have had the swaz. removed.

Edited by Ulsterman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Uwe, here are the answers to the questions you posed in your post.

"Based on these observations I had always assumed that the DRL without the swaz was quickly instituted to replace the DRL."

When and for whom? Do you mean, to replace the DRA?

Yes you are correct, sorry for the mistake. I meant to say the DRL without swaz was quickly instituted to replace the DRA. For some reason I cannot edit my post, probably having something to do with my level of membership. This would have been during the transition period between the Weimar Republic and the Third Reich.

"... a large number do not have the letters cut out and are essentially unfinished."

The badges were complete finished, with a complete needle.

The DRL without swaz is the only one of the main three designs (DRA, DRL w/o swaz, DRL w/swaz) that is found with the letters not cut out. When I say unfinished, this is to which I am referring. Some are cut out, others are not. The ones that are cut out went through the entire finishing process, those that are not cut out, failed to receive this final step. I don't know why they would have received a pin before being cut out as the cut out process surely must take place before the addition of the needle. But it is the fact that these badges exist without cut out letters, that make these an anomaly. Perhaps the manufacturers thought that even though swastikas were to be added to the design, they might be able to get rid of the inventory they created and quickly assembled all stock in the hopes that even those without the final finishing of being cut out would be able to be used. I also find it odd that none exist with a manufacturer's mark. It is almost as if a large run of prototypes was made and not accepted. Of those that are post 1945, most do have a MM and usually are seen to be a reworked die from the DRL with swaz.

"Some were finished out, most were not due to the fact that the powers that be decided to add a swastika to the design."

To add to which design? Please explain me the time line of the DRL without the swastika, but with the "tip" ^.

To add to the design of the DRL without swaz. Most DRL without swaz examples are seen not to have been reworked DRL with swaz examples. There is no tip, the three loops binding the bow can be seen to be a part of the original die and there is only one large bow. The DRL without swaz but with the tip, is a clearly reworked design of the DRL w/swaz. It was intended to fill the gap at war's end and would conform to the new regulations that a swastika was not supposed to appear on awards. If the DRL without swas dies were a post war design, there would have been no need to rework the old DRL w/swaz dies.

"There is no post war evidence of wear of the DRL without the swaz just as there are no pre war photos either."

I cannot show period pictures of a DRL without swastika in the time frame 1934 - 1945, but I can e.g. present you pictures in post WW II catalogues of these sports badges without the swastika.

I am willing to bet that all post 1945 photos of the DRL without a swaz will show that the "tip" is present, or more than one ribbon loop is present or that the letters are cut out. I have yet to see a post 1945 photo of a DRL without swaz, or any DRL for that matter, that has the letters that are not cut out. The reason that no photos of a DRL without swaz exist pre 1945, is because they were never awarded. Production was ceased and no awards were made before the DRL with swaz was the required standard.

This discussion is very interesting to me as I have long had an interest in these badges. Though no concrete proof exists that the DRL w/o swaz was produced prior to 1945, no concrete proof exists that it was not made prior to 1945. Catalogs showing a DRL without swastika post 1945 would not be proof that they never existed prior to 1945, just proof that they existed post 1945. There would have been no catalog picture and no photo of these in wear if these never reached official award status. The Coelocanth was thought to be an extinct fish until one was brought up in a fisherman's net in 1936. No picture or sighting existed from prehistoric times to 1936 but, obviously, it existed during that time. Until we find paperwork (as I think no photos of these in wear will ever be found since I believe they were never awarded), or regulations or some other period document that can provide a clear definition of the date of production of these badges, I think these will always remain a contested area.

Richard V

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...