Single sided PLM , fake or copy ?

[kyokashinkai]

opinions on this one please !!

many thanks to you all

kyokashinkai

[kyokashinkai]

reverse

[Ralph A]

A fake copy... or a copied fake... or a trinket. or maybe Von whatshisface's kids had it made for him, after he lost the original in a crap shoot?

I don't believe baroque suspensions were made before 1917, in any event.

Seems like i saw a thread on one-sided PlM's... try searching.

[Ed_Haynes]

OK, I don't claim to know much about the PLM, but . . .

[DutchBoy]

My test is: Would you see a self-respecting WWI ace like Baron von Richthofen wearing something like this, on a smart Prussian uniform with all his other goodies? I think that's resounding NO!

Edited January 26, 2007 by DutchBoy

[Schießplatzmeister]

Hello folks:

Again, a forgery!

Note that baroque type badges were made before 1917. 1914-1916 issued badges (made in gold of course) also had baroque suspensions.

Best regards,

"SPM"

[Ralph A]

...

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

I certainly do not qualify as an expert when it comes to PlM?s, so I would like to ask a question to all who can help with regard to what I believe is the main point of this thread.

Is there anyone out there who can verify the fact that there is such a thing as a genuine, that is to say issue(d), PlM with enamel on one side only?

Thank you in advance for your responses,

Wild Card

[medalnet]

Wild Card made the key point.

I have seen those single sided pieces and can only say that they were always gifts, special order items for certain occasions. The Krause PlM from Weitze.net came from a rather small auction house that handled all orders from Oberst Krause. This piece was made by Godet and given by his staff as a gift to him.

Just like today those gifts were made by the usuals (the Wagner's, Friedlaender's, Godet's and Rothe's).

The feature piece has an inscription on the reverse. von Hauff 1915? Could you confirm this?

I do not see anybody with that name or similar name in my lists of PlM recipients.

The markmanship may be good enough for a funeral piece, but I am afraid that it is not.

[medalnet]

....Note that baroque type badges were made before 1917. 1914-1916 issued badges (made in gold of course) also had baroque suspensions.....

That is not correct. Godet's toolings were never changed. Godet used the same toolings during the end of WWI and made silver gilt pieces as well.

[medalnet]

...for those that are interested in PlM's made by Godet - click here: Godet PlMs

[Schießplatzmeister]

That is not correct. Godet's toolings were never changed. Godet used the same toolings during the end of WWI and made silver gilt pieces as well.

Hello Medalnet:

You are of course correct regarding Godet pieces. I was referring to Wagner-made awards (the style of award which started this thread). Sorry for the confusion caused by my comment!

Best regards,

"SPM"

[Steve Russell]

Gentlemen,

I certainly do not qualify as an expert when it comes to PlM?s, so I would like to ask a question to all who can help with regard to what I believe is the main point of this thread.

Is there anyone out there who can verify the fact that there is such a thing as a genuine, that is to say issue(d), PlM with enamel on one side only?

Thank you in advance for your responses,

Wild Card

Well Wild Card, I am no expert either but I have studied the one-sided pieces quite a bit because of the Meybauer PlM I own. Here is what I have learned in a nut shell.

- One sided PlMs existed, the main manufacturer being Meybauer.

- Most believe that these pieces were for funeral pillows, but I can find no evidence on the Meybauers that this was their stated purpose. Meybauer produced the full-range of military awards, so why would their PlM not be in the same league as say Wagner or Godet?

- I can find no evidence yet that the Meybauers were 'issued.'

- I believe the Meybauer obverses were made on the same dies as Godet because nearly every detail is identical.

One PlM recipient was known to have worn a Meybauer piece to all the PlM reunions.

- I can find no evidence that the Meybauer PlMs were NOT produced during the war. I suspect they were given that they produced all the other awards. We know they were produced in the 1920s.

If anyone has evidence to the contrary on my findings thus far, it would be MOST welcome and no offense taken at all. This is just what I have found out thus far.

As to the the piece that started this post, several things do it in. I have yet to see any original piece from any maker that has the 'hook' at the top of the 'l' in 'le.' The eagles are very poor and the cut outs on the legs make a poor showing for any jeweler serious enough to handle Germany's highest award. This piece screams fake.

Here are some pics of my one-sided Meybauer.

Edited February 1, 2007 by Steve Russell

[Steve Russell]

The back.

[Steve Russell]

The Paul Meybauer maker mark. Comments to above statements and the Meybauer PlM welcome. Steve

[Daniel Cole]

I once had a PLM like the one staring this thread. Sometimes you see this piece with the German Patent Pending stamp on the back. They are all the same with the legs drilled out (especially noticeable from the back). Mine even had the same style of suspension loop which was the same as the ring on a key chain, albeit gold plated. I'll try an see if I have a scan of it, but I doubt it.

By the way I bought the piece at a gun show for about $25.00.

[medalnet]

That's more like it

[Wild Card]

Hi Steve Russell.

Thank you for the information which you have compiled and presented in post #13. It all makes sense and with my limited knowledge of this subject, I certainly can not question any of it.

One line in particular jumps out at me - ?One PlM recipient was known to have worn a Meybauer piece to all the PlM reunions?. Actually, I would suspect that more than one recipient wore, at least in the early years, what is referred to as a ?wearer?s copy?; and I would expect that Meybauer was a primary supplier. Along this line, I seem to recall seeing somewhere that because of it?s value and importance, coupled with the fact that unlike other decorations it was to be worn virtually at all times, the awarded piece was often kept at a safe place while a wearers copy was used for day to day wear.

As one collector, I do not have a problem with this in that I feel that there is a legitimate place for wearer?s copies. It?s just that, at the same time, I also feel that they fall into a separate and distinct category from the awarded pieces.

Thank you again for your information - very helpful.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[Steve Russell]

Thanks Andreas and thanks Wild Card. Wild Card, I have numerous photos of vets wearing two different PlMs and agree that the wearer's copies certainly existed. It would be hard for anyone to dispute that. But what I have yet to find is anyone that can prove that the Meybauers were only made in the post war period. I do not believe they were because they were such a major producer of EKs, badges and other awards, many with the same hallmarks.

@ Daniel Cole. I know the piece you are talking about. I, too, picked one up for next to nothing years ago because it looked pretty good for the fakes. The enamel work was outstanding and it even had a mark on the back that says Ges. Gesch. Probably made in Germany. I am glad I kept it. It turns out to be a promotional piece for the very first showing of the movie 'The Blue Max' in 1966. Jack Hunter was even selling a couple of them on Der Rittmeister that belonged to him and his wife (for $125.00 each!). While I don't always trust his judgment on real PlMs given the number of Rothes and Spanish fakes that appear there, I have to concede that he would be the expert on the movie promotional medals. Here are pics of mine. Does yours look like this one? Steve

Edited February 3, 2007 by Steve Russell

[Steve Russell]

Back

[Wild Card]

Hi Steve Russell,

I finally found my copy of ?Court Jewelers of the World? by Jeff Jacobs and here is his entry regarding Meybauer -

?Paul Meybauer, Junkerstrasse 19, Berlin. This firm is not exactly a manufacturer of orders insignia, bu did make quite a lot of insignia for the Free Corps from about 1917 or 1918 into the 1920?s. The name has been seen on the star of the ?Order? of Tamara, the Von Diebitsch Malplaquet star and the star of the Schutzruppe Bug. The firm also made insignia during the Nazi era and used the marks P.M. and L/7.?

Nothing terribly definitive, but I do hope that it might be helpful.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[medalnet]

Wild Card,

I think that this is once more a good hint towards the fact that not all those (lets call them) distributors made every single medal themselfs. the single sided piece shown here is a prime example. I it very likely that godet made those for Meybauer. I examined that piece myself during the MAX show in Charlotte. Certainly high quality, and very likely - again - made by Godet.

Medalnet

[Les]

Wild Card,

I think that this is once more a good hint towards the fact that not all those (lets call them) distributors made every single medal themselfs. the single sided piece shown here is a prime example. I it very likely that godet made those for Meybauer. I examined that piece myself during the MAX show in Charlotte. Certainly high quality, and very likely - again - made by Godet.

Medalnet

The "Friedlander" PlM appears to have been made from the same exact dies that Wagner made PlMs from. Comparing the two "types" side by side, shows both have highly specific die flaws that resulted in blanks having the same production flaws. Friedlander appears to have acquired blanks (or even possibly finished but unmarked medals) from Wagner, and sold them with the Friedlander firm's Ritzmarke on them. Friedlander does not appear to have been a manufacturer of the order, but a -retailer-.

There might well be a similar connection between the wartime Godet PlM, and the single-sided Meybauer example(s).

When Meybauer "acquired" or sold the single sided examples is not as clear cut as Steve might like to say by his statement there is "no evidence" the firm "didn't" make them during the war. In fact, there is no evidence that Meybauer did, or did not.

That being said, let's look at the fact that post-war (those made in the 1920's) Godet made PlM's while they still look very similar to the wartime production examples, have a junction or center space where the arms converge. The center "gap" is large enough that this would change the geometry of the outer arms of the crosses working dies enough that a new die would have to be made to produce the post war examples made/sold by Godet.

Andreas has pointed out (several times and on his web-site) that the wartime Godet did not change and the type remained very constant throughout the war years even with the change from gold to silver gilt. After the war however, there is evidence that Godet changed his dies at least once, and there is the possibility he may have done so at least once more during the late 1930's.

Now, a question for thought...what happened to the -wartime- dies? Did Godet dispose of them, or use them for making and supplying other -retailers- who in turn sold the items with their own firm's markings on them, with an item his firm was no longer making and selling as the main product?

Les

[Steve Russell]

Apreciate the analysis guys.

Andreas, I agree that the relationship between Herstellers certainly points to one firm making the materials for the less prominent others that vend them. For example, from what I have researched, the Godet die style seems to be found on Hemmerle, Meybauer, and Schickle variants. Les' fantastic analysis of Tim Tezer's PlM shows the Friedlander / Wagner relationship.

Les, I agree with the principle of what you are saying on the arm center gap. I am trying to get a visual. Are you saying the gap is narrower or broader in the later post-war pieces? If broader, the Meybauer / Godet pieces seem very tight. The issued Godet pieces appear identical in appearance to the Meybauer, Hemmerle and Schickle types. We know that pie-wedge pieces were sold by jewelers during the war as Ernst Udet purchased one in late March 1918 from a jeweler in Berlin. That would rule out Hemmerle. Schickle is unlikely given the known advertisements during the TR period. That would leave Godet or Meybauer as possibilities.

This is why I believe that these Godet and Meybauer type pie-wedge non-issued pieces could pre-date the 1920s. Great discussion. Steve

Edited February 10, 2007 by Steve Russell

[Wild Card]

... the relationship between Herstellers certainly points to one firm making the materials for the less prominent others that vend them. ...

And vice versa.