Chris Boonzaier Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 Hi,Is there any way to date these?They are extra long, 12cm's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted March 1, 2007 Author Share Posted March 1, 2007 Here is the back... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted March 1, 2007 Author Share Posted March 1, 2007 I am hoping TomY will say "Oh, those are the 1912 model..."And Rick will say... "In 1912 Von Whatsisname was commander" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 More pre-1900 than after, I'd think. Those "wriggling earthworm" braids rather than flattened, and the lack of underlay suggest that.Now all you need to do is hunt down a list of all the regimental commanders from 1888-1909... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted March 2, 2007 Author Share Posted March 2, 2007 More pre-1900 than after, I'd think. Those "wriggling earthworm" braids rather than flattened, and the lack of underlay suggest that.Now all you need to do is hunt down a list of all the regimental commanders from 1888-1909... Ohhhhh... woe is me.... If I had known that I would not have shelled out the sheckles... I thought they were WW1....Damnation....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted March 2, 2007 Author Share Posted March 2, 2007 Ohhhhh... woe is me.... If I had known that I would not have shelled out the sheckles... I thought they were WW1....Damnation.......Still... maybe they were for a guy who went on to be a WW1 General? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted March 2, 2007 Author Share Posted March 2, 2007 I missed these but I assume they are from the same guy.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip Posted March 4, 2007 Share Posted March 4, 2007 Chris,I can narrow it down a bit by telling you that the regimental cypher was not introduced until November 5, 1913. It does seem a bit odd to see this cypher on an old style board. Perhaps the lack of backing material is telling us something about the originality of this crown and cypher being on these boards?Chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted March 4, 2007 Author Share Posted March 4, 2007 Any thoughts to the "12cm" part? Thats pretty damn long !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted March 4, 2007 Author Share Posted March 4, 2007 Chris,I can narrow it down a bit by telling you that the regimental cypher was not introduced until November 5, 1913. It does seem a bit odd to see this cypher on an old style board. Perhaps the lack of backing material is telling us something about the originality of this crown and cypher being on these boards?ChipHi,Me hope not!!!But looking through wartime photos of higher ranking officers and many seem to have no backing on the boards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted March 4, 2007 Author Share Posted March 4, 2007 I don't want to seem like I am going into denial here... I really do believe these are good, but they may not be one of those items that is a "One looker" accepted without a thought or two.My thoughtsRick places the boards without backing up to 1909.Skip says the Cypher is November 1913.What can be the answer? How is that possible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted March 4, 2007 Author Share Posted March 4, 2007 I would like to advance the following theory....12cm long shoulder boards... it says to me that they were made to have 2 pips and a crown on them. Short boards with 2 pips and a crown looks as squeezed in as John Candy in a pair of bicycle shorts.In fact, these long boards with just a crown would have fitted very well to Gustav Schoch who commanded the regt from October 1905 to October 1908....Does anyone remember hand me downs? My brother got my school blazer when I moved on because it was in great shape and the parents did not want to buy another one for nothing... a "Financial hand me down"...Then there are tradition hand me downs... the samurai sword passed on in the family, a guy in my company wearing his fathers badges (he served in the same regt 20 years earlier)... little neat tradition things.. a "Tradition hand me down"...So... and this requires a bit of imagination... when little brother Emil Schoch takes over big brothers old job in April 1912 commanding the old regt, while sipping sherry at the family sunday lunch, old Gustav says.."Lil brother, you are continuing the tradition, as a symbol of honour let me present you with the shoulder boards I wore...." And lil brother Emil, the family tight fist thinks "Great! costs almost EUR100 for a pair of these at the tailor, and they are so much better than the flatter ones they churn out today"...And so for "Traditions" reasons, lil brother gets a nice pair of boards from older brother, to which he ads the Cypher in November 1913.Lets not underestimate the power of tradition, and the fact that these were at the time expensive items, not cheap machine embroidered patches.Anyone think that likely? Unlikely?All the bestChris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip Posted March 4, 2007 Share Posted March 4, 2007 (edited) Chris,I don't think that such boards were made without some sort of backing, whose main purpose is to give some foundation to the loops which are more or less tacked together. The reason you do not see the backing in so many photos is that, particularly, on this pattern of officer's cords, the backing was very small and came nowhere near the edge of the board. I submit to you another high officer board of the same style with the type of backing that I am referring to. As you can see, this type of backing would never have been seen from the top. Perhaps, in your case, (and given the holes in the retaining straps, the backing was so badly eaten, as to have been removed. Your retaining straps do look somewhat resewn. I have lightened up the piece somewhat as it is black and hard to see, but I think you will see what I am alluding to. This board is 15cm long and only has an ?skulapstab and one pip.Chip Edited March 4, 2007 by Chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip Posted March 4, 2007 Share Posted March 4, 2007 I would like to advance the following theory....12cm long shoulder boards... it says to me that they were made to have 2 pips and a crown on them. Short boards with 2 pips and a crown looks as squeezed in as John Candy in a pair of bicycle shorts.In fact, these long boards with just a crown would have fitted very well to Gustav Schoch who commanded the regt from October 1905 to October 1908....Does anyone remember hand me downs? My brother got my school blazer when I moved on because it was in great shape and the parents did not want to buy another one for nothing... a "Financial hand me down"...Then there are tradition hand me downs... the samurai sword passed on in the family, a guy in my company wearing his fathers badges (he served in the same regt 20 years earlier)... little neat tradition things.. a "Tradition hand me down"...So... and this requires a bit of imagination... when little brother Emil Schoch takes over big brothers old job in April 1912 commanding the old regt, while sipping sherry at the family sunday lunch, old Gustav says.."Lil brother, you are continuing the tradition, as a symbol of honour let me present you with the shoulder boards I wore...." And lil brother Emil, the family tight fist thinks "Great! costs almost EUR100 for a pair of these at the tailor, and they are so much better than the flatter ones they churn out today"...And so for "Traditions" reasons, lil brother gets a nice pair of boards from older brother, to which he ads the Cypher in November 1913.Lets not underestimate the power of tradition, and the fact that these were at the time expensive items, not cheap machine embroidered patches.Anyone think that likely? Unlikely?All the bestChris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted March 4, 2007 Author Share Posted March 4, 2007 I dunno, I am also a born sceptic, but I don't get an automatic negative buzz with these.What do you find so unrealistic about my idea? It came to me in a dream last night :-)Seems to be far from an impossible solution? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip Posted March 4, 2007 Share Posted March 4, 2007 Chris,Don't get me wrong here. I am not saying that the boards are put together. All I mean to say is that the backing is missing and that by 1913, you would only see such boards being worn on dress occasions and more likely than not, by elderly retirees.Chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted March 4, 2007 Author Share Posted March 4, 2007 Stop the presses... I had the wrong CD in. Schoch was 1st not 10th regt... okay, that theory falls away... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted March 4, 2007 Author Share Posted March 4, 2007 Chris,Don't get me wrong here. I am not saying that the boards are put together. All I mean to say is that the backing is missing and that by 1913, you would only see such boards being worn on dress occasions and more likely than not, by elderly retirees.ChipSeeing the moth eaten state of the back of the straps, it may be that someone pulled the remains of the backing off to make it "neater" ?Dang... if they were provably bad then i could get out of the sale, the seller guarantees originality, but it would have to come from a technicality other than what I can see on the photos above... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip Posted March 4, 2007 Share Posted March 4, 2007 I would think that you could get your money back, if you wished, by just saying that you did not realize until you got them that they had once had a backing, which is now missing. Otherwise, I think they look quite nice, though not a wartime style, if that is what you prefer.Chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted March 5, 2007 Author Share Posted March 5, 2007 OK,A last hot before I get ma first EBAY negative...Can we assume that the fact the boards are so big points to them being made to have all the thingies on them? Would look pretty barren for a regular major?Can we assume that they are indeed original but missing the backing?If so, what do you think a good price for them is?I am hoping they are indeed original but without backing...There seems to be some red thread traces here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted March 5, 2007 Author Share Posted March 5, 2007 A really good close up...The problem is... I ebayed them with the pics as seen... they cost me EUR160If you say "Ahhh, EUR120 would be tops..." I will groan and pay the EUR160. If you say "Ain't worth squat" I will cry and plead with the seller.If the consensus is... original, but the backings are missing... then I will probably go ahead and buy, basically I am the fool who did not make sure of what he bid on.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip Posted March 5, 2007 Share Posted March 5, 2007 Chris,Red thread is good! The original backing would have been red and most likely the thread too. The length of these boards, or any other pattern for that matter, has nothing to do with what goes on them. I could show you lots of officer's boards that are nearly completely full with insignia from top to bottom. And then, on the other hand, huge boards with nothing. This was just the style of the time. All higher grade officer's boards would have looked something like this in the 1880's and 1890s. Though officer's could do about anything they wanted, within reason, the general guidelines were normally adhered to. Length could be whatever suited the soldier and the tailor. There was more latitude with length as opposed to width.I don't collect these older pattern boards, so I would not venture to say what they are worth. Besides, these days, as I am sure you have noticed on eBay, who knows what anything is worth. The world has gone mad. I'm repeatedly stunned by the prices that things sell for. My ideas of value are from a bygone era when one sat at home and wrote letters and things had a more stable value.But since you asked, I would say that I would buy them for $160, but 160 Euro is about $210.00. Perhaps if I was more interested in the era..... Chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted March 14, 2007 Author Share Posted March 14, 2007 Well, I paid my money and took my chances...All in all I am happy with what arrived today. From what I can see, all fits, it seems to be a kosher set of boards that are just missing the backings.The devices all match as far as condition go... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted March 14, 2007 Author Share Posted March 14, 2007 Little bits of red thread on the back... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted March 14, 2007 Author Share Posted March 14, 2007 They are 2 or three times heavier than I thought they would be !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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