WW1 Victory Medals General Discussion

[Jim P]

I am having a great weekend, collection wise. Just picked up this ready made collection of WWI victory medals. 10 medals in all, one U.S. with the St. Mihiel, Meuse- Argonne and defense sector bars(which could fall into the 33rd Illinois infantry div, of which I have a helmet also), French, 2 Czeck, Romanian, South African, 2 English, Belgian and Italian. The South African and both English medals are named.

I thought I would add this to this pinned topic that I enjoyed reading so much. If it does not belong here please feel free to move it.

Jim

Edited May 29, 2011 by Jim P

[RobW]

I am having a great weekend, collection wise. Just picked up this ready made collection of WWI victory medals. 10 medals in all, one U.S. with the St. Mihiel, Meuse- Argonne and defense sector bars(which could fall into the 33rd Illinois infantry div, of which I have a helmet also), French, 2 Czeck, Romanian, South African, 2 English, Belgian and Italian. The South African and both English medals are named.

I thought I would add this to this pinned topic that I enjoyed reading so much. If it does not belong here please feel free to move it.

Jim

Hello Jim,

Welcome to the thread. This is a nice ready-made collection of vics.

Finding these items with their correct ribbons is another area that itself requires much study. As Mr Laslo has mentioned in his reference obtaining the pieces is one thing; having the correct ribbon lends to the authenticity and correctness of the piece. It also helps you identify if a piece has the correct ribbon or has been re-ribboned with a latter produced ribbon or one of different manufacture.

There are a few ribbon varieties that are characteristic of specific countries. In regards your small collection most have the correct ribbons, except in the case of:

* Italy - This has the British ribbon attached. There are a number of correct Italian ribbon styles which have been identified and pictures posted earlier in this thread.

* Romanian - It has the Belgian ribbon attached. The correct ribbon is either of a less watered local Romanian manufacture or of French manufacture. There are examples of each listed already on the thread.

A close-up of the reverse of the Romanian vic would help in order to determine which variety it is.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Rob

Edited June 16, 2011 by RobW

[Tim B]

Just a quick update/note here.

I gave my pitch to Nick about starting a dedicated forum to these Vic's and to move the new forum to either the Military History or Special Interest Sections and see we are in process of making this change. Many thanks Nick!

Tim

[Bilco]

Many thanks for the news, Tim. The change seems to be seamless - the same URL and all.

Bill

[Tim B]

Hi Bill,

Excellent! Glad to see others are starting to find it okay. I am talking to Nick and the changes are in progress as we speak.

If you noticed, I cut & pasted a topic on clasp stars that was a topic in the old thread. Simply cut & pasted what I needed to reference and then started a new, specific thread to get more discussion going. Nick has mentioned that he might try to move some of the older thread pages into individual topics, but it might be just as easy to reference the old thread information and start a new thread from scatch as we need to discuss things. We'll see what works for everyone. We could simply link to the pages in question as well.

For now, Nick doesn't want to have separate sub-forums like what I suggested a few pages back and prefers to let this change settle first and see how it goes. So, other than maybe changing the forum icon to a VIC or something, this change is almost complete. I recommended the Special Interest Section because the Victory Medal has such an international flavor and is, for many, of special interest. So, hope that didn' bother anyone adding the forum here.

I would like to encourage ALL members to throw some thoughts out on what you would eventually like to see and perhaps those additions will happen. This is OUR forum, so let's make it work for all of us.

Cheers and again many thanks to Nick!

Tim

Edited June 22, 2011 by Tim B

[Bilco]

Hi Tim - I want to post something on the Japanese vic - should I just start a new thread or do you want to cut-and-paste the previous postings into the topic?

It's starting to look good with the threads already in place - many thanks for your efforts.

Bill

Edited June 22, 2011 by Bilco

[lambert]

I was a few days off, and when I get to see my favorite topic changed for the better!.<BR closure_uid_tbt4ir="711">EXCELLENT!

Lambert

[Tim B]

Hi Tim - I want to post something on the Japanese vic - should I just start a new thread or do you want to cut-and-paste the previous postings into the topic?

It's starting to look good with the threads already in place - many thanks for your efforts.

Bill

Hi Bill,

I will start adding topics today, sort of based on what my sections had called out in my initial proposal, and we just post into those. Example: I'll add a Japaneses thread and everyones posts their Japanese Vic's/questions into that specific thread. I see Lambert has already started a thread on the Brazilain Vic, so we can use that and add to it.

Wish these could have been similar to a folder where we could further separate the discussions within countries, but for now thats about the most we can hope for.

Of course, nothing to say if someone just wants to start a separate thread on anything, you are more than welcome to do just that.

Tim

[Tim B]

I'm going to close this thread so no new additional comments can be made here and instead, invite members to post their questions in the specific area they apply. This thread will remain for viewing past information but is now closed. Thanks!

Tim

[Gordon Williamson]

Interesting to see that the French regulations also allow for the VM to be awarded in recognition of having been wounded. Anyone know if this was a standard provision in the regulations for other countries too ?

[Tim B]

Hi Gordon,

I'm not sure how each country established their awarding criteria but, in the U.S., the Victory Medal was just a service medal. It was awarded to everybody in uniform, regardless of position, location, or time in service during the period of entitlement.

So, a person that entered the service in 1918 and never left stateside would be entitled to wear the medal (no attachments) just as would some guy sitting in the trench getting shot at, though he would be entitled to whatever campaign clasps he took part in. As far as being wounded or killed in a service related cause, it's common practice for the U.S. miltary to award any and all service/campaign medals, along with any personal decorations, posthumously to the next of kin. So, for U.S. personnel yes, he would have automatically qualified for the Vic and any campaign or country clasp that applied.

I think the Belgian's viewed it along the same lines as well, if the man was wounded or killed, he automatically qualified for the Vic and WW1 Commemorative Medal. If he died, either his spouse or mother was entitled to wear the black enameled "mothers/widow" bar on the Vic ribbon and depending on the man's actual time at the front, he would have been entitled to bars that went on the Commemorative Medal denoting frontline service.

Tim

[Gordon Williamson]

Hi Tim,

I'd thought most if not all of the nations which awarded the VM would have had broadly similar award criteria.

I'm trying to get my head around the awards which though not created for that specific purpose, were also awarded in respect of wounded and KIA. The British War Medal was automatically awarded to the NoK of those killed in action as, I believe, was the VM but I can't see any reference anywhere so far, to provision for the British VM being awarded to the wounded.

I'm trying to decide what awards to include in a project on Wound/KIA awards of WW1 and WW2 and it does get rather complicated. There are many specific awards created for being wounded ( Wound Badges, Wound Stripes, Medals etc) and for the NoK of those KIA (the Memorial Plaques etc) but also a host of awards where some clause was written into the regulations allowing other awards to be granted in the case of those Wounded/Killed. Leaning towards including those where the regulations specifically state that the award could be bestowed on those wounded in action, especially as with some of these ( like the Belgian Commemorative Medal you mention)there was often a ribbon device to indicate that the wearer had been wounded, plus those posthumous awards which were visually different (like the Finnish Cross/Medal of Mourning where a different [black] ribbon was used to indicate a posthumous award).

So, it looks like maybe only some of the Inter-allied Victory Medals might fall into the category of being approved for award to the wounded. Next job is to track down the various regs and establish which :unsure:

[johnnymac]

To All,

Cc - Gordon & Tim

There was not special medal awarded for military personnel wounded or killed during the First World War for U.S. service men. However there was a lapel pin given out, silver for a wound or death and the bronze for service during the war. In 1932 when the Purple Heart was created all the persons who had been wounded and family members of the next to kin who had been killed, could apply for the Purple Heart with proper documentation.

Regards, Jim M.

[Gordon Williamson]

Hi Jim,

Yes, I have one of these little silver Victory Pins for Wounded/KIA. They came in two sizes. So far I only have the smaller size, which is rounded rather than following the contour of the leaves.

[johnnymac]

Hi Gordon,

I do not believe your silver star is a, "just a smaller version of the wounded-killed lapel pin".

I have never found a smaller version of this pin but I feel seeing yours this way, would make one believe there was one.

So let me say what I think you may have.

illustrations:

1. My lapel pin is for wounded-killed in service.

2. American legion adopted the Victory Medal lapel pin as their center piece, in 1919.

3. Yours silver star, you will note has a slight edge around the outer ring as if something might fit around it.

4. The fourth example seems as it might fit with yours since it is missing the center piece.

Regards, Jim M.

Edited July 25, 2011 by johnnymac

[lambert]

Then, the wounded / KIA Pin can be easily confused with the Pin American Legion of Honor.

Thanks for the explanation.

Lambert

Edited July 25, 2011 by lambert

[johnnymac]

Hi I could use a little help. I need a high resolution jpeg of any of Geo W. Studley catalogs from 1930's to the 1960's. Just a jpeg of the cover of the catalog, the page with the date of the catalog and the page that shows the full size Victory medal on it.

Thanks, please send all emailed jpegs to jmcpm45@hotmail.com

Jim

[Bilco]

Hi Gents,

I've just come across the on-line catalogue for the Watson Medal Collection in the Fitzwilliam Museum, in Cambridge. http://www.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/dept/coins/collection/watson/

This collection has been mentioned a couple of times on the GMIC Forum in the past. However, I found a section in the catalogue dealing specifically with the Inter-Allied vics - there are 13 in the collection, covering most of the Allied nations. They are here http://www.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/dept/coins/collection/watson/catalogue/index5.html just below section E (no, it isn't called F!).

The collection was amassed in the late 1920s, according to the catalogue notes. Of interest is the Great Britain vic, which the notes say is un-named, and seem to imply that none were named. The Japanese is correctly catalogued as a copy, and the Greek is the 'no-O' version. Does anyone have any other observations of the medals shown?

Just shows - we are following in a long tradition of Inter-Allied vic collectors.

Bill

[johnnymac]

Good morning, and thanks for posting this Bill,

IMO there are several items that I might take a better look at. The Czech I would have to have better photos of, as from what I can see I have this feeling something is not right here. I know the Cuban is wrong, and as you said the Japanese and Greek medals.

Adding - The Privately engraved Army Victory Medal could not have been until after June of 1920. This wrong dating is understandable as many believe the first issue date to be 1919. But here is a big question mark to me, and it is this, "L. Watson, Capt. A. S. A.", and it is assumed to be Lester Watson's own award for service in the Army Security Agency.

To me, this engraving had to have been done at a later date and here is why I think so. WIKI: The U.S. Army Security Agency (ASA). The Agency existed between 1945 and 1976 and was the successor to the Army Signal Intelligence, dating back to World War I.

In my way of thinking the engraving should be "L. Wastson Capt. A.S.I." (had been done in 1920, and not A.S.A.)?

Jim

Edited December 11, 2011 by johnnymac

[lambert]

Hi Gents,

I've just come across the on-line catalogue for the Watson Medal Collection in the Fitzwilliam Museum, in Cambridge. http://www.fitzmuseu...lection/watson/

This collection has been mentioned a couple of times on the GMIC Forum in the past. However, I found a section in the catalogue dealing specifically with the Inter-Allied vics - there are 13 in the collection, covering most of the Allied nations. They are here http://www.fitzmuseu...gue/index5.html just below section E (no, it isn't called F!).

The collection was amassed in the late 1920s, according to the catalogue notes. Of interest is the Great Britain vic, which the notes say is un-named, and seem to imply that none were named. The Japanese is correctly catalogued as a copy, and the Greek is the 'no-O' version. Does anyone have any other observations of the medals shown?

Just shows - we are following in a long tradition of Inter-Allied vic collectors.

Bill

Hi All

The Czech medal is a medal made ​​in France in 1920, called "reproduction" I understand, isa very rare model of the manufacturing Czechoslovakia.

Lambert

[RobW]

Hi All

The Czech medal is a medal made ​​in France in 1920, called "reproduction" I understand, isa very rare model of the manufacturing Czechoslovakia.

Lambert

Hello Lambert,

Yes the Czech is a French reproduction.

In addition the Japan variety illustrated is also a French production. Surprisingly these French productions are seen more rarely than their official counterparts.

These reproductions also have the correct French ribbon as well.

Regards,

Rob

Edited December 13, 2011 by RobW

[RobW]

Hello RelicHunter.

Welcome to our group. ! The collection of Vic is addictive, you'll soon find out. It takes some time to get the medals more "scarce", there is still the reproductions that can overcome the lack of the medal "official."

the total list of countries involved with the Inter-Allied Victory Medal are:

Belgium: official Types 1 & 2, Unofficial Type 1, 1a, 2, 3 and at least 4 Repros. (Repro and Unofficial very Scarce)

Brazil: Official Type 1 & 2. (Type 1 Very Rare and Type 2 Rare)

Cuba: Official Type, & at least 3 Repros. (All Rare)

Czechoslovakia: Official Type 1, 2, Reissue Type 1, 2, Unofficial Type 1, 2, 3, Repro at least 4 types. (All Scarce)

France: Official Type, Reissue, Unofficial Type 1, 1a, 2, 2a, 2b, 2c, 2d, 3, as well as 4 types of Repro. (Repro and Unofficial very Scarce)

Great Britain: Official Type 1, Type 2, Repro 1, 2. (Type 1 scarce)

South Africa: Official Type 1, Type 2, at least 2 Repro Types. (Type 1 scarce)

Greece: Official Type 1, Unofficial Type 1, 2, 3, and at least 2 Repro Types. (Unofficial Scarce)

Italy: Official Type 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, Reissue 1, 2, Unofficial Type 1, 2, 3, 4, at least 3 Repro Types. (Unofficial Scarce)

Japan: Official Type 1, Repro Type 2. (Repro Type 2 Rare)

Portugal:Official Type 1, 2, Unofficial Type 1, 2, Repro at least 4 known. (All Very Scarce)

Rumania: Official Type 1, Unofficial Type 1, 2, 3, 3a, Repro at least 3Types. ( All Scarce)

Siam / Thailand: Official Type 1, Repro at least 4 types known. (All Very Rare)

United States of America: Official Type 1, 2, 3, Reissue Type 1, 2, Repro Types 1, 1a, 2, 3, 3a, 4, 5, So called "Dollar types" (without suspension device) Types 1 & 2.

Regards

Lambert

[RobW]

To all,

I have copied a post by Lambert from the Japanese vic sub-forum for all to view. Given the variety and myriad of vics from the many countries, and the geographical spread of collectors there will naturally be different perspectives on the relative scarcity or otherwise of the vic series.

It would be interesting if other collectors could post their own interpretations and/or thoughts on the relative scarcity of each countries official, unofficial, re-issue and reproductions. This may, at least, give other collectors an idea as to the probability or availability of locating such pieces.

Whilst I have not been collecting vics as long as some others, I would agree with Lambert's listing with the following addition:

Romania: Official Type, Unofficial Type 1, 2, 3, 3a. (Scarce in good condition with the unofficial type 3a very rare)

Let's see other views.

Regards,

Rob

Edited April 19, 2012 by RobW

[lambert]

Great observation Rob.

I made a list of my observations about each Medal and the difficulty of Acquire, also believe that each collector has his or interpretations of each one listed Vic.

I'm checking is not yet concrete.

But one can exitir Repro of Brazilian VIC. made in Brazil in 2000, the National Association of Vetaranos Brazilian Expeditionary Force (ANVFEB) to decorate elements that have contributed to the memory of the War I in Brazil.

I have no information, I'll try to get more

lambert

[RobW]

I made a list of my observations about each Medal and the difficulty of Acquire, also believe that each collector has his or interpretations of each one listed Vic.

lambert

Do any other collectors have a different perpective to that posted above?

Regards,

Rob

Edited May 10, 2012 by RobW