Yankee Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 Hello Would any memebers please tell me what time era this knight 2nd class/swds was issued. The center is gold and the swords are directly fixed to the cross, first I have seen this kind of sword mounting. ThanksSincerelyYankee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted June 18, 2007 Author Share Posted June 18, 2007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted June 18, 2007 Author Share Posted June 18, 2007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted June 18, 2007 Author Share Posted June 18, 2007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schießplatzmeister Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 Hello Yankee:This is not a typical WWI piece or maker. With the centers being gold, the piece would most likely be from the 1870-71 or colonial period. It could also be a very early WWI piece. Unfortunately, there is no way to tell for certain, unless someone knows when THIS manufacturer made FO badges, and if there was a finite window in time.An unusual and very nice piece!Congratulations,"SPM" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted June 19, 2007 Author Share Posted June 19, 2007 Hello Yankee:This is not a typical WWI piece or maker. With the centers being gold, the piece would most likely be from the 1870-71 or colonial period. It could also be a very early WWI piece. Unfortunately, there is no way to tell for certain, unless someone knows when THIS manufacturer made FO badges, and if there was a finite window in time.An unusual and very nice piece!Congratulations,"SPM"Hi SPMThanks for your insight , an excellent idea to find out when Otto Wennberg was in business, must admit I never knew of this jeweler before SincerelyYankee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 I'd guess it is an early WWI piece from 1914 to 1915 era - a very nice one. =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev in Deva Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 (edited) Hallo Yankee I took the liberty of cropping your pictures and highlighting them for better clarity, Kevin in Deva Edited June 19, 2007 by Kev in Deva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 Beautiful piece!Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Card Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Hi Yankee,As I understand it, early issue pieces had the swords directly fixed to the cross. The later, WWI issue pieces, had the double eyelet suspension system, with which we are more familiar. However, there exist examples with a true hinged arrangement which apparently were awarded for a short period either before or between the two types mentioned above. Below is an example of this third type of suspension on a commander?s badge.Hopefully, Uwe will see this thread and give us all of the details.Regards,Wild Card Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted June 21, 2007 Author Share Posted June 21, 2007 Hi Yankee,As I understand it, early issue pieces had the swords directly fixed to the cross. The later, WWI issue pieces, had the double eyelet suspension system, with which we are more familiar. However, there exist examples with a true hinged arrangement which apparently were awarded for a short period either before or between the two types mentioned above. Below is an example of this third type of suspension on a commander?s badge.Hopefully, Uwe will see this thread and give us all of the details.Regards,Wild CardHi Wild CardUnderstand what youy mean, thanks for posting that beautiful example Certainly true a picture is worth a thousand words. I went on the net to find any further info on Otto Wennberg and strangely enough only came up with Der Rittmeister who has an example of a knight 2nd class w/swds ( swords in gold ) this type looks more like the hinged type as you talked about, certainly not the rings or loops that one normally comes across. Unfortunately no luck when Otto Wennberg was in business but judging by the example that Der WRittmeister has, safe to say he was an early order manufacturer.SincerelyYankee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kunsho Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 Hi SPMThanks for your insight , an excellent idea to find out when Otto Wennberg was in business, must admit I never knew of this jeweler before SincerelyYankeeOtto Wennberg was in busines from 1903 until 1915. The case shown is only produced in 1914/15 when Ott Wennberg produced the FrO 3b with swords. The FrO 3b shown here is definitely not a Wennberg, it is a 1914/15 produced cross from the manufacturer Eduard Foehr. The art of connection of the swords is not a question of period, only a question of the manufacturer (the double eyelet system for example is only used by the Stuttgart Mint). Foehr for Example always fixed the swords directly to the cross...The very early 1914 (and early 1915) WWI Friedrich Orders are always in gold and not silver gilt.Best regards Matthias Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted April 14, 2008 Author Share Posted April 14, 2008 Otto Wennberg was in busines from 1903 until 1915. The case shown is only produced in 1914/15 when Ott Wennberg produced the FrO 3b with swords. The FrO 3b shown here is definitely not a Wennberg, it is a 1914/15 produced cross from the manufacturer Eduard Foehr. The art of connection of the swords is not a question of period, only a question of the manufacturer (the double eyelet system for example is only used by the Stuttgart Mint). Foehr for Example always fixed the swords directly to the cross...The very early 1914 (and early 1915) WWI Friedrich Orders are always in gold and not silver gilt.Best regards MatthiasHi MatthiasMany thanks for your kind help in correcting me, bringing excellent detailed research into this topic. I just assumed that the order and case was a match since it was purchased together and a good fit. Are the Otto Wenning examples of the knight 2nd class swords in gold too or just the cross? By chance have you a picture of a Wenning example that you can share. Enjoyed touring your neat web site. Just read your excellent article on the St. Henry medal which was most informative in clearing up my confusion with Rothe era examples. The St.Henry medal 1848-9 is identical to the 1914-18? Thank you.SincerelyBrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kunsho Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 ...Are the Otto Wenning examples of the knight 2nd class swords in gold too or just the cross? By chance have you a picture of a Wenning example that you can share....The swords of the knights 2nd class (made by Otto Wennberg) are always gold. I have researched and published (in the last two publications of the German collectors society -BDOS- magazine) the very interesting biographies of the jewellers Eduard Foehr and Carl Zinser. Next publication will be the bio of Otto Wennberg...This for the very first time published data and facts will clarify many presumptions and allegations to the Wuerttemberg jewellers...Best regardsMatthias Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kunsho Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 (edited) This is a typical Wennberg FrO 3b with swords (untipical at this example is the medaillon ring in normal gold, instead of the for this manufacturer usual redgold). Edited April 14, 2008 by kunsho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted April 15, 2008 Author Share Posted April 15, 2008 This is a typical Wennberg FrO 3b with swords (untipical at this example is the medaillon ring in normal gold, instead of the for this manufacturer usual redgold). Many kind thanks for pointing out what material the swords should be made from. Your foto is absolutely well detailed, can see clearly that Wennberg piece is clearly superior in quality then the other firms. I guess prior to WWl the jewelers didn't look to cut corners.SincerelyBrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted May 13, 2008 Author Share Posted May 13, 2008 Hi MatthiasTake a close look at post 3 and there you will find a detailed foto of the interior case, you will notice how the sword hilts sit directly on the cross. Your example would be impossible to fit into the case by Wennberg ( post 3) due to the link between the rectangular loop and sword hilt ( swords not resting directly on cross ). Take a look at your case and there should be a different layout. Possible the jeweler changed his design in last months of operation in 1915 as the case would show.SincerelyBrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted May 13, 2008 Author Share Posted May 13, 2008 Hi MatthiasTake a close look at post 3 and there you will find a detailed foto of the interior case, you will notice how the sword hilts sit directly on the cross. Your example would be impossible to fit into the case by Wennberg ( post 3) due to the link between the rectangular loop and sword hilt ( swords not resting directly on cross ). Take a look at your case and there should be a different layout. Possible the jeweler changed his design in last months of operation in 1915 as the case would show.SincerelyBrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Card Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 Gentlemen,Over the years, I have noticed something that strikes me as being a bit out of the ordinary with regard to this order. It seems that while knight?s 2nd class crosses with swords are rather common, knight?s 2nd class crosses without swords are equally rare. Has anyone else noticed this, or is it me?Below is a 2nd class cross without swords; conveniently (for the purpose of this thread) produced by Otto Wennberg - at least that?s what it?s case indicates.Wild Card Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Card Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 Close up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schießplatzmeister Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 Hello Wildcard:Yes, I have noticed this too!I have seen Friedrich Order 2nd Class badges with swords removed by someone unscrupulous to make an instant badge without swords.I was lucky enough to get a genuine 2nd Class w/o swords from Eric Ludvigsen's collection many years ago.Best regards,"SPM" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homerjey Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 Hello, here is my case for FA2 without swords, unfortunately without cross.... regards Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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