WWI, Iraq group

[James T]

Another un-researched group that I purchased back in 1980 because it was complete with the full size medals, miniatures and the ribbon bar. The set has been resting ever since in my storage area and just pulled out recently.

The Medals are named to 8254 W. O. CL. 2 J. W. VERNON. NORTH' D FUS just noticed the 1914-1916 star has the prefix C. SJT

Regards

Jim

[Ed_Haynes]

An interesting group, and very much worth researching, especially with the MSM. He surely went through some times, first in the Great War and then, later, in Iraq where things were as bad as they are today. Some things don't change.

In India, the very ribbon for the GSM associated with Iraq became, by the late 1920s and early 1930s, an object of terror and recruiters going out to snag new soldiers were told to take it off when they went to villages lest the locals spy the ribbon and hide their sons away out ot reach. WWI ribbons were OK, and would actually help in recruiting, but not THAT ONE.

[paul wood]

M.S.M. London Gazette, 26/4/17 p. 3450, general citation. (R.Q.M.S.)

Paul

[bigjarofwasps]

In India, the very ribbon for the GSM associated with Iraq became, by the late 1920s and early 1930s, an object of terror and recruiters going out to snag new soldiers were told to take it off when they went to villages lest the locals spy the ribbon and hide their sons away out ot reach. WWI ribbons were OK, and would actually help in recruiting, but not THAT ONE.

How very interesting!!!!! Do go into more detail, I`d very much like to know, more.

Does anyone know if any books been written about this campaign?

[Ed_Haynes]

How very interesting!!!!! Do go into more detail, I`d very much like to know, more.

A couple of years ago, when I was making the rounds of the old-time military tailors in New Delhi, asking the proprietors to dig into their back shelves for old obsolete medal ribbons that I could take off their hands, the elderly owner of one of the oldest such shops had his father visiting from the village in the shop. This gentlemen was not only VERY 'village' but looked old enough to have changed Methuselah's nappies. As his son pulled out a nice original roll of GSM 1918 ribbon, daddy recoiled in horror, asking me (in Hindi) why I wanted THAT THING. I explained as best I could, but as we got into a conversation the whole tale emerged of how he remembered this ribbon and how it was viewed in their village (in a major recruiting area in Punjab) and how that reputation -- he called it the 'ribbon of terror' -- was rooted in the terrible experiences of boys from the area in Iraq, which they described as 'worse than France, worse than Gallipoli'.

Talking that interesting conversation for what it was worth, I looked up the instructions to recruiters working the villages in the inter-war period and found in the archives the specific instructions not to wear that ribbon as it would render recruiting efforts impossible.

I should probably write this up for Durbar or maybe the OMRS journal?

Does anyone know if any books been written about this campaign?

It hasn't gotten much attention, alas. Probably because it was mainly an Indian Army operation (sparing the British from getting harmed -- much as the publications on WWI have fixated on France). For the few documents I have seen, it would have provided a good cautionary historical corrective (much as the First Afghan War might have) for the current adventurism. I did meet a chap -- and someplace I have his name -- who was from Cambridge University who was working on this war in the National Archives (of India, of course) this summer, so we may have something good some day.

[Graham Stewart]

Not an awful lot to tell you regards J.Veron apart from the fact he was promoted from Sgt to Clr/Sgt in November 1914 with the 2nd BN,NF. The rank Colour Sgt would be correct as the new ranks of Regimental Sgt Major(replaced Sgt Major), Company Sgt Major and Company Quartermaster Sgt(both replaced Clr/Sgt, the senior four Clr/Sgt's becoming CSM's) weren't instituted until the end of 1914 beginning of 1915.

Graham.

Edited July 18, 2007 by Graham Stewart

[bigjarofwasps]

A couple of years ago, when I was making the rounds of the old-time military tailors in New Delhi, asking the proprietors to dig into their back shelves for old obsolete medal ribbons that I could take off their hands, the elderly owner of one of the oldest such shops had his father visiting from the village in the shop. This gentlemen was not only VERY 'village' but looked old enough to have changed Methuselah's nappies. As his son pulled out a nice original roll of GSM 1918 ribbon, daddy recoiled in horror, asking me (in Hindi) why I wanted THAT THING. I explained as best I could, but as we got into a conversation the whole tale emerged of how he remembered this ribbon and how it was viewed in their village (in a major recruiting area in Punjab) and how that reputation -- he called it the 'ribbon of terror' -- was rooted in the terrible experiences of boys from the area in Iraq, which they described as 'worse than France, worse than Gallipoli'.

Talking that interesting conversation for what it was worth, I looked up the instructions to recruiters working the villages in the inter-war period and found in the archives the specific instructions not to wear that ribbon as it would render recruiting efforts impossible.

Hi Ed,

Many thanks for your reply. I`m really curious as to what the issue was with Iraq at the time. I must admit my history of the country isn`t all that great. Was there heavy fighting there during this period or was it disease ridden, or something, perhaps both?. Just why did they fear the place so much? I seem to remember something about the Manchester Regiment, fighting for some hill or other, but thats about it, for my knowledge of this period of history.

Gordon.

[Ed_Haynes]

In short: Invasion, occupation, establishment of a foreign-derived puppet government, rising (and untimately successful) resistance to the foreigners and their hand-picked rulers.

While more dangerous that the usual Wikipedia pieces, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ir...hy_and_republic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_hist....281918-1932.29

For example, the "revolt" certainly wasn't over in 1922. It was just that, from a British perspective, "victory" was declared (without benefit of an aircraft carrier) but the fighting continued pretty much unabated until the overthow of the Hashemite rulers and the expulsion of the British in 1958.

[Michael Johnson]

The classic account is Haldane's "The Insurrection in Mesopotamia" http://www.amazon.co.uk/Insurrection-Mesop...e/dp/1855710218

Reprinted, but now looks like it's out of print again.

Disasters like Hillah, where the Manchesters took heavy casualties (as did other units - I once had a Kurdistan Iraq GSM to one of the 45th Sikhs who was killed there - another of the bad choices I've made in selling medals) doubtless did not help with recruiting.

Edited July 19, 2007 by Michael Johnson

[bigjarofwasps]

Cheers Guys, & we think its a mess out there now!!!!!!

[bigjarofwasps]

Between 1920 and 1922 the British put down an Iraqi revolt costing them 40 million pounds to do so.

2003- to date, THE invasion and occupation of Iraq has cost British taxpayers more than ?4 billion, it emerged last night as a senior officer outlined plans to withdraw nearly all soldiers from the area by the summer of 2008.

Since the war began in March 2003, around ?1 billion a year has been spent on operations and equipment costs.

[Ed_Haynes]

British Mandate (1918-1932)

Between 1920 and 1922 the British put down an Iraqi revolt costing them 40 million pounds to do so.

Anyone any idea, how much this current occupation has cost?

Remember that, since it was "East of Suez", most of the cost of the pervious war was paid from Indian revenues and not part of the UK budget (and probably not in these figures).

But, taking just that, and using GDP to index the conversion, that ?40,000,000 in 1920 would be ?8,199,156,662.76 in 2005.

See: http://measuringworth.com/calculators/ukcompare/

[paul wood]

Remember that, since it was "East of Suez", most of the cost of the pervious war was paid from Indian revenues and not part of the UK budget (and probably not in these figures).

But, taking just that, and using GDP to index the conversion, that ?40,000,000 in 1920 would be ?8,199,156,662.76 in 2005.

See: http://measuringworth.com/calculators/ukcompare/

Christ that's why my beer has gone up about 25% since 2003.

Paul

[Ed_Haynes]

3674 Sepoy Mahant Singh, 52nd Sikhs (Frontier Force) (later 2/12th Frontier Force Regiment)

1- BWM - "3674 SEPOY MAHANT SINGH, 52 SIKHS F F"

2- Victory - "3674 SEPOY MAHANT SINGH, 52 SIKHS F F"

3- GSM 18 "Iraq" "Kurdistan" - "3674 SEPOY MAHANT SINGH. 52-SIKHS."

[Ed_Haynes]

Despite what it suggests on his MIC card, he may not have survived the 1922 regimental amalgamations.

Edited July 20, 2007 by Ed_Haynes

[Michael Johnson]

Despite what it suggests on his MIC card, he may not have survived the 1922 regimental amalgamations.

If Gordon is correct, the 52nd were in Kurdistan in both 1919 and 1923. At the latter date they would have been the 2-12th.

[leigh kitchen]

In short: Invasion, occupation, establishment of a foreign-derived puppet government, rising (and untimately successful) resistance to the foreigners and their hand-picked rulers......

Well, thank goodness there was no chance of that ever happening again..........

My favourite regiment, lovely group.