Duke Baron Count

[Bear]

Hello,

I'm trying to figure out how the titles(Duke, Count & Baron) rank from top to bottom.

thanks,

barry

[Ed_Haynes]

While these (in various translations) differ in meaning and substance over time and space, you may want to see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobility

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nobility

http://www.chinet.com/~laura/html/titles02.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nobility

etc. . . . .

While Wikipedia -- as I tell my students CONSTANTLY -- is not 100% reliable, it is not a bad place to start. If you don't have a library nearby.

[Dave Danner]

While these (in various translations) differ in meaning and substance over time and space, you may want to see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobility

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nobility

http://www.chinet.com/~laura/html/titles02.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nobility

etc. . . . .

While Wikipedia -- as I tell my students CONSTANTLY -- is not 100% reliable, it is not a bad place to start. If you don't have a library nearby.

Wikipedia is as reliable (or unreliable) as its users make it. The German nobility article above, for example, is not all that well written or clear. It says "The nobility was divided in various subgroups" and then lists four in a row, but the first two and the second two are totally different concepts and overlap each other. Some Uradel were Hochadel, and the others Niedere Adel. Some (maybe all) Briefadel were Niedere Adel, since sovereigns, even in microstates of the Holy Roman and German Empires, had noble lineages going well back (even if that required creativity).

The list in that article of examples of titles leaves out some less common ones, like Vogt, and variations of the ones there, like Kurf?rst, Markgraf and Reichsfreiherr. And there is no real precedence, as this varied heavily. Members of sovereign houses (Hochadel) generally ranked ahead of non-sovereigns (Niedere Adel), as their names indicate, but within the category of sovereigns, things were confusing. A prince normally outranks a duke, but a F?rst or Prinz of a sovereign house like Lippe or Liechtenstein did not outrank a duke. Also, within the lower nobility, I believe mediatized princes (members of former sovereign houses which had lost their sovereignty) outranked non-mediatized princes, no matter their actual titles.

By the way, Junker, listed there as a category of lesser nobility, is considered a derogatory term by Junkers themselves.

[GeorgeCL]

I the russian court as follows.

This info Thanks to a fellow member on Alexanders Palace.

Members of the Imperial Family of Russia

His Imperial Majesty the Sovereign Emperor

Her Imperial Majesty the Empress

His Imperial Highness the Grand Duke

Sons of the Emperor and grand sons of the Emperor in the male line.

Her Imperial Highness the Grand Duchess

Daughters of the Emperor and grand daughters of the Emperor in the male line.

His Highness the Prince of the Imperial Blood

Great grand sons of the Emperor in the male line and the eldest son of each of the great grand sons of the Emperor in the male line.

Her Highness the Princess of the Imperial Blood

Great grand daughters of the Emperor in the male line.

His Serenity the Prince of the Imperial Blood

Great great grand sons of the Emperor in the male line.

Her Serenity the Princess of the Imperial Blood

Great great grand daughters of the Emperor in the male line.

Members of the Nobility of the Russian Empire with Native Titles

Serene Prince- His/Her Serenity the Prince/ss

Illustrious Prince- His/Her Illustriousness the Prince/ss

Count - His/Her Illustriousness the Count/ess

Baron - His/Her Excellency the Baron/ess

Members of the Nobility of the Russian Empire with foreign titles that do not corresspond with Russian titles

Duke (Gerzog in Russian)- Addressed as: His/Her Highness the Duke/Duchess or His/Her Serenity the Duke/Duchess depending upon their royal or serene status.

Marquis (Markvis in Russian)- ? - May be one if any use of the title with a naturalised noble.

Vicount (Vikont in Russian)- ?- May be one if any use of the title with a naturalised noble.

This may be more that you want.

But I pasted the whole thing.

George

[Ed_Haynes]

Wikipedia is as reliable (or unreliable) as its users make it. The German nobility article above, for example, is not all that well written or clear. It says "The nobility was divided in various subgroups" and then lists four in a row, but the first two and the second two are totally different concepts and overlap each other. Some Uradel were Hochadel, and the others Niedere Adel. Some (maybe all) Briefadel were Niedere Adel, since sovereigns, even in microstates of the Holy Roman and German Empires, had noble lineages going well back (even if that required creativity).

The list in that article of examples of titles leaves out some less common ones, like Vogt, and variations of the ones there, like Kurf?rst, Markgraf and Reichsfreiherr. And there is no real precedence, as this varied heavily. Members of sovereign houses (Hochadel) generally ranked ahead of non-sovereigns (Niedere Adel), as their names indicate, but within the category of sovereigns, things were confusing. A prince normally outranks a duke, but a F?rst or Prinz of a sovereign house like Lippe or Liechtenstein did not outrank a duke. Also, within the lower nobility, I believe mediatized princes (members of former sovereign houses which had lost their sovereignty) outranked non-mediatized princes, no matter their actual titles.

By the way, Junker, listed there as a category of lesser nobility, is considered a derogatory term by Junkers themselves.

As I said, Dave:

. . . While these (in various translations) differ in meaning and substance over time and space, . . . .

Such a vague question is hard to engage, even with the notorious sloppy inaccuracies of 'Wikipedia'.

[Dave Danner]

As I said, Dave:

Such a vague question is hard to engage, even with the notorious sloppy inaccuracies of 'Wikipedia'.

No argument. As I'm sure we've discussed before either here or at OMSA's forum, for any really serious topic, Wikipedia is unreliable at best. For any controversial topic, Wikipedia is especially unreliable. But for basic questions, it can be helpful - a World Book Encyclopedia rather than an Encyclopaedia Britannica. If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't allow a student to cite Wikipedia as a source.

As to the initial question, the simplest answer, avoiding all the detail, is that dukes outrank earls and earls outrank barons. Earls are generally equal to counts. A marquis, margrave or a marchess is also generally equal to an earl or count. Indeed, the German word for this, Markgraf, means "count of the mark" (with mark or march being a borderland). The titled nobility rank ahead of those with just a noble name, such as "von somebody". Monarchies generally maintain a register which establishes where someone stands. When someone is ennobled, he or she is matriculated, or added to the register. In Bavaria and Austria, this register was called an Adelsmatrikel.

[fjcp]

A marquis, margrave or a marchess is also generally equal to an earl or count.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one....

The title of Marquis/Marquess/Markgraf falls nicely between Duke and Earl/Count.

JC

[Dave Danner]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one....

The title of Marquis/Marquess/Markgraf falls nicely between Duke and Earl/Count.

JC

You know, you're right. My bad. Looking at French and British precedence, Marquis/Marquess ranks ahead of count/earl. I assume the same is true of Markgraf, though I imagine it was a mess to keep clear Markgrafen, Pfalzgrafen, Landgrafen, Burggrafen, and all the other variations on Graf.

[Ed_Haynes]

Again, we still don't know the "when" and "where" of this question. Ought we assume automatically that every question is "German"??!?

[Bear]

Hello,

I've always thought that Europe/Russia had a standard nobilty system, but it seems each country is alittle bit different. Its going to take sometime to go through most of them. It seems that during the Napoleonic Period everyone had some sort of title and I'm going to try and learn the basics.

thanks,

barry

[Dave Danner]

Hello,

I've always thought that Europe/Russia had a standard nobilty system, but it seems each country is alittle bit different. Its going to take sometime to go through most of them. It seems that during the Napoleonic Period everyone had some sort of title and I'm going to try and learn the basics.

thanks,

barry

I think the British system, discussed in one of Ed's links, was fairly standardized by the Napoleonic Era. The French system of the ancien regime was a mess, as you can see if you look at the discussion of the Marquis de Sade on Wikipedia. Below Duc, titles such as marquis and comte were often assumed without any regard to status or claim. I'm not sure if the Imperial system under Napoleon was more standardized. The German and German-influenced states in and out of the Holy Roman Empire (abolished by Napoleon) were the mix of titles mentioned above. The abolition of the Holy Roman Empire added to the mess, as many formerly sovereign houses were mediatized, keeping titles but losing their sovereignty.