It Would Be Funny, But I'm Not Laughing

[Guest Rick Research]

A "Zivilversorgungsschein" was given by the holder's military command to career enlistment noncommissioned and petty officers after completion of their 12+ years of active military duty. It was a "get into the civil service free" entitlement, unless there were no government jobs available, or the discharged NCO preferred to exchange or hold this (it had to be surrendered when a civil service job resulted) for the "cash out" one time bonus-- to start his own business or whatever.

But what do I know? Images and description ? the Professional seller

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Wachtmeister Hans Linhuber-- I think that's a guy, right? --ACTUALLY served in Bavarian FIELD ARTILLERY REGIMENT "Prince Regent Luitpold."

Of course, that's just MY "opinion."

Maybe the Bavarians HAD a navy. Maybe their career noncommissioned officers WERE babes. Maybe this photo? from the Amazing Ricky Collection? is not a naughty couple in swapped clothes but Clear And Decisive Evidence of a hitherto unsuspected professional women's corps in the Imperial German military.

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Naaaaaaaaaaw.

Caveat Emptor!!!! (BTW that fake cast black painted SWA medal is still available!)

[Guest Rick Research]

As the Good Ricky, forthwith all about Zivilversorgungsscheine:

The fact that one is available means that the poor holder never turned it in for a government job--which was the PURPOSE of this entitlement booklet.

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This one was issued to Feldwebel (Offizier Stellvertreter) KARL Franz Wehrheim, serving at the time in Landsturm Infantry Battalion "Meschede" (numbered XVIII/1 on collars)

It was for completion of 12 years and no days active military duty, and as shown, indicates that by statute the bearer was thereby entitled to an appropriate grade civil service appointment in any Reich-level bureaucracy, or in any federal State or municipal administration in which he had held citizenship for at least two years. (I once had a group where a Mecklenburger received Prussian citizenship for his army service and TRIPLE citizenship on assignment to Hohenzollern's Fusileer Regiment 40... so that sort of duty could open some unusual opportunities!)

[Guest Rick Research]

And this is all the entry information that there will ever be in one of these. The rest of the book is filled with paragraph after paragraph of Gothic type rules and regulations, variables such as being pensioned or not, and so on.

There was no monthly pension here. It was issued at Frankfurt am Main on 11 October 1917 by the Maintenance and Welfare (Versorgungs) section, Home Establishment of the Hessian XVIIIth Army Corps, and signed by commander Oberst "Schmid." (One of two possible, that name and rank.) It shows Wehrheim as 29 years and 8/12 months old, indicating that he most likely entered the army as a teenaged NCO School graduate rather than the usual 20 year old draftee asked to reenlist.

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The right hand page merely shows-- as any of these that is out there will-- all the bureaucratese about the holder opting for a pay out rather than a government job. Per 16.9.20, at Frankfurt am Main 25.9.20 yada yada file reference numbers he was given a one time cash payout of RM 3000, along with a 40% bonus, at Landau on 13 October 1920.

To put that in perspective, that was more than a Captain's annual salary before the war, and what an Oberleutnant made during the war. It was a nice HEFTY sum to explore setting up a business or just cruise for a year or two before it ran out in living expenses.

Wehrheim was lucky. ZVS holders who left the service before 1 April 1914 by law only got RM 1500 and a monthly payment of RM 12.

And though we know by the existence of this, and any other ZVS, that the holder never DID get a government job, Paragraph 57 states that if and when a "one time payout" recipient did get a civil service position--

HE was obligated to pay the money back.

[Mike Huxley]

OMG .. he who say's he knows it all ... "Der Expensivemeister" has made a total pigs ear of his description and understanding of this. Even I, as a non German speaker can see that it belonged to field artillery soldier and not a woman

On the good side .. his price for this pass is not over the top

Edited August 30, 2005 by Mike Huxley

[Guest Rick Research]

Purely by accident!

[Bob Hunter]

I'd buy it but I can't pronounce the word!

[joe campbell]

i must say, gentlemen, that i am moderately um....

interested in that picture in the first post. the one

on the right appears mildly hyperthyroid (note the eyes,

consistent with exopthalmos), but either one would be

welcome to come try on my uniforms....

this is a great! period photograph. amusing,

a smidge provocative, and a somewhat out of the

ordinary candid shot.

thanks, RR.

joe

[landsknechte]

Is it just me, or does the person on the left look a little too much like Julia Roberts?

--Chris

[joe campbell]

or julius roberts??????

heh-heh-heh.....

roscoe

[Bob Hunter]

Gawd, Joe, I love it when you use all those nifty medical terms that all somehow sound so very serious even if they're not...

Edited August 31, 2005 by Bob Hunter

[David Gregory]

Rick,

As always, a good explanation of this frequently ignored type of document that usually sells for very little on eBay.

Although the seller of the one shown in post #1 has some interesting items on offer, his descriptions and pricing defy belief.

Is he really so badly informed about what he sells?

/David

[Guest Rick Research]

Sadly, yes.

Frankly, I am baffled how anybody can be immersed (collecting or Professional selling) in any field for years and years and have a "learning curve" that remains ______________________

And that is why beginning collectors should be especially careful not simply to believe anything that they see, and be careful to verify, check, and weigh what is claimed against what is accurate. Ask fellow collectors about any specific Professional seller's knowledge strengths and weaknesses. Do not assume that expertise in ONE area means omniscience in ANOTHER. I am a great example of that: pathologically pedantic and exact within my specialized fields, and as cluelessly "newbie" as the next beginner outside my focus areas.

All too often in my decades of collecting, I have seen new collectors simply falling into the "groupie" trap, convinced by some glib seller with apparently nifty wares and slick self-promotion that they actually KNOW what they are doing. Being honest, among the howlingly obvious BAD there are indeed wares offered by this seller-- leaving aside any question of "price versus value" in National Currency Units: he simply hasn't got a clue which is which!

______________________

This yawning gulf between asserted/presumed knowledge and REAL knowledge is the case all too many times. Real expertise and imaginary expertise may be difficult to tell apart for beginners, but it is far better to LEARN than BURN cash. We collectors have to educate ourselves and look out for each other.

PS Being able to read the language being collected is essential, and no Babelfischy thing can compensate. Any dealer selling items he cannot even read... well, there's a big clue right up front.

[Stogieman]

I think as with all dealers, it's truly up to the buyer to know what he's doing. An educated, knowledgeable and careful shopper will find some absolutely magnificent pieces from this seller for very reasonable prices on a quite regular basis. Know what you're looking at and you will find diamonds in every rough!

[Mike Dwyer]

OMG .. he who say's he knows it all ... "Der Expensivemeister" has made a total pigs ear of his description and understanding of this.

When I first found "Der Expensivemeister" site I was looking at his wares and he had a beautiful little white and blue porcelain box that had a W on the lid with the imperial crown above it, surrounded by the grand collar of the Order of the Black Eagle, and around that a blue belt with the words "'Honi Soit Qui Mal Y Pense' on it. In his description he said it was the "Hohenzollern family motto"!!!!! After I picked myself up off of the floor from laughing so hard, I sent him an e-mail advising that it was the motto of the British Order of the Garter and that Kaiser Wilhelm II was a knight of the Garter (until it was taken away from him during the war). I never heard anything back from Der Expensivemeister and he never changed his description either.