Hungary The Hungarian Order of Merit

[Gordon Craig]

Gentlemen,

I have received a response from Sally Gergely, the curator of Medals at the Hungarian Military Museum in Budapest. His email response is below;

Dear Gordon,

The 2nd Class stars that I measured in our collection are 59 mm in diametre. You are right about numerals, the reverse of the bigger version in the picture that you sent displays engraved numerals that differ significantly from what they should look like. On the strength of the above, the bigger version might not be original, in the sense that it might not have been manufactured (or at least finished) in the HUngarian State Mint. But that is just a guess. On the other hand it seems to be nice in quality. I hope this helps.

Regards,

Gergely

Another collector here in Budapest is going to post the pictures sent by Anatoly on a Hungarian medals forum. I'll post any response from the forum on this thread.

Regards,

Gordon

Edited September 26, 2007 by Gordon Craig

[Anatoly13]

Very interesting opinion!

Thank you,Gordon!

We are waiting for continuation...

[hunyadi]

Gents - Just from an observation about a year ago when a full set of these were up for auction (about $2500 oppening bid) they were cased in cases that were clearly made post 1957. The orders were in mint condition and there was nothing that made me suspect that the orders in the case were 'added' or 'swapped'. As I am away from my computer I cant give you pictures of what the reverse of these looked like - though from what I observed there were certainly examples produced after they were awarded. Perhaps for museums, repleacements, or?? This may be one explination of the different characteristics of the orders.

[Gordon Craig]

Charles,

Thanks for your input. I look forward to seeing the photos when you return. I was going to post the picture from the auction catalogue but I'll wait for your photos which will be much more useful to us. Interesting that you mention "they were in cases clearly made post 1957". Since you are our "case expert" (I know you hate that word!) I look forward to the pictures of the cases and your explanation about them. Give me a call when you get over your jet lag. We should get together next week sometime. I've got some general's uniforms I'd like your opinion on.

Regards,

Gordon

[Ulsterman]

I eagerly await more information with baited breath. I strongly suspect that the larger type (I own one) may have been made from original parts-the stars in the center are almost exactly the same. the chief difference is the golden sunburst backing.

My example has the star being glued in! This quality decline is typical late communist era manufacture shoddiness and i have wondered if they were Russian made "replacements"-or if they were put together to make a quick euro/buck/pengo after the state mint sold off all its old scrap.

Edited September 28, 2007 by Ulsterman

[Gordon Craig]

Gents,

Here is an email from a friend who posted the pictures of the different sized 2nd class award on the Hungarian medals forum. Unfortunately, they have nothing to contribute. Here is the email response I received just a few minutes ago.

Gordon,

Unfortunately nobody could help. There is a good collector's forum: http://medals.extra.hu, my post had 7 answers, but nobody was able to say anything that could be useful. Sorry. If any useable information would show up, will let you know instantly.

Regards, Sandor

I also had another look in the auction catalogue that Charles mentioned. There was nothing there that would be useful. Nothing about size and only the fronts of the wards were presented. The auction included one of each class, cased, plus a miniature for each class for a total of 14 pieces. We will have to wait for Charles to return to Budapest and post the pictures he took of these awards at the pre-auction viewing.

I'll be in Pecs all weekend so if anything else comes in for me to post I won't be back on the net until late Sunday evening.

Regards,

Gordon

[Gordon Craig]

Gentlemen,

I've receieved another very interesting answer from my friend Sandor. Here is latest email.

Gordon,

I received a relevant answer. The guy says there are three standard variations of this order, differing in their thickness and size. Other difference is that some have a hallmark, some not. He also says there definitely are differences in the shape of the numbers, he knows 4 or 5 different shapes. Unfortunately there are no statistics, so we don't know how many have been produced of the different variations.

If you want to take a look at the post, here is the URL (unfortunately it's in Hungarian, but could be useful anyhow):

http://medals.extra.hu/modules/myalbum/pho...d=615&cid=7

Regards, Sandor

There are some very interesting comments in this email. Sandor seems to captured all of the relevant information from the thread but please have a look at it for yourself. There were such a small number of these honours awarded that it doesn't seem logical that there would be so many variations but I am willing to take this information at face value and do more research from there.

Regards,

Gordon

[Anatoly13]

Gordon!

You do very useful and necessary business!

I hope you will reach true.

[hunyadi]

Charles,

Thanks for your input. I look forward to seeing the photos when you return. I was going to post the picture from the auction catalogue but I'll wait for your photos which will be much more useful to us. Interesting that you mention "they were in cases clearly made post 1957". Since you are our "case expert" (I know you hate that word!) I look forward to the pictures of the cases and your explanation about them. Give me a call when you get over your jet lag. We should get together next week sometime. I've got some general's uniforms I'd like your opinion on.

Regards,

Gordon

Gentlemen - my 'exertise' on cases only stems from observation. The cases for these Orders that were in the auction had a red 'leatherette' scuff pad, which is consistent with the cases produced after 1957. Prior to this cases have a paper 'marble' style scuff pad. Though there apparently was a 'stash' of the cases wth marble scuff pads found in the 1970's. These apparently did not have the inserts with them - so as production swithced to more plastic components, these 'stash' cases had crushed felt covered plastic inserts for the awards. But back to the cases of these orders. The components aside from the scuff pads on the bottom also had characterisitcs of post 1957 - the spring type clasp, the quality of the leatherette, etc...were all consistent with later production. One other clue was the lack of a state coat of arms - the Rakosi style being discarded after 1957, wehre as other cased examples have the Rakosi style coat of arms. Regreftully I did not get photos of the case top or bottom - but you can see some of the case details that I talked about. Also - the lighting in the gallery and my lack of a tripod also left - less than desireable photos.... but regardless - here goes...

[hunyadi]

reverse of the first class

[hunyadi]

Second class

[hunyadi]

reverse

[hunyadi]

3rd

[hunyadi]

reverse one of the better shots...

[hunyadi]

finally the fourth class - interesting that this was the only one in the set where the smaller order came with a device for the ribbon...

[hunyadi]

rev

[Ulsterman]

Nice set!

I strongly suspect that these were made pieces held in storage for award and later sold off as government surplus.

[Anatoly13]

Great!

1 and 2 cl are my dream

[Gordon Craig]

Charles,

Great photos. Really too bad the miniatures were missing from the ribbons of the associated 5th class medals. Was there a cased 5th class award that you took pictures of? The auction listing indicates all five classes were being offered for the one price.

Regards,

Gordon

[hunyadi]

yes there was - but I think that the photos I took were too blury - so I delted them. As I recall it came in a "standard" (aprox 140mm x 85mm x 25mm) size case with just the award and the ribbon bar.

[Gordon Craig]

Charles,

Ok, thanks.

Gordon

[Gordon Craig]

Gents,

I have received the information required that will allow me to contact the individual who made the post to the Hungarian Medals Forum. I have emailed him thanksing him for allowing us to dialog with him and asked some specific questions about his comments on the Hungarian forum. I'll post his answers as soon as I receive them.

Regards,

Gordon

[Gordon Craig]

Gentlemen,

I have had a response from our Hungarian friend. His name is Dr. Zolt?n Egerszegi. His English is good enough for me to understand what he has to say. He has sent several pictures that I will post. First, some comments on what we have said on the thread so far. Up to know, I thought that when we were talkign about 4 to 5 variations in numerical sizes we were referring only to the 2nd class and that confused me. It turns out that the different shapes of the numerals are sparead across the entire order which makes me feel a lot better. The first pictures I will post will be of a number of cases for the fifth class order. They all appear to be different. This gives us an excellent overview of some of the casesavailable at this level of the award.

Edited October 2, 2007 by Gordon Craig

[Gordon Craig]

The next photo concentrates on the numerous different number styles on the backs of the awards from the cases shown previously. At first they all look a lot alike but when you study them you will see different shaped "4s" different shaped "9s" etc.

[Ed_Haynes]

Oh . . . my brain hurts . . .