Republic of Ireland Irish 1916-20

[Ceallach]

Gentlemen,

Word on the street that 1916 fakes abound on the fair Isle ! Any comment.

An Ceallach

Edited September 9, 2008 by Ceallach

[Brendan]

Gentlemen,

Word on the street that 1916 fakes abound on the fair Isle ! Any comment.

An Ceallach

I think there is more a fear of fakes than actual fakes but as in the case of a 1916 medal when you are paying that much cash then you are right to fear a fake, who wants to pay that sort of money for a medal only to find it is worth virtually nothing. At the risk of repeating advice already given on this board, spend your money on a small archive and get to know what you are buying before you buy.

Several other threads have suggested that Auction Houses are the safest places to buy but read the small print, below is the text from the terms and conditions of one well known Dublin auction house and the rest are much the same.

'Representations or statements made by the Auctioneer in any Catalogue as to contribution, authorship, genuineness, source, origin, date, age, provenance, condition or estimated selling price or value is a statement of opinion only. Neither the Auctioneer nor its employees, servants or agents shall be responsible for the accuracy of any such opinions. Every person interested in a Lot must exercise and rely on their own judgment and opinion as to such matters.'

If you buy it from a dealer, on Ebay, at an auction or from a man you met on the street, if you know what you are buying before you but you will be alright.

[molders]

There has been much talk of fake medals appearing recently but any I've seen in Dublin are of the type to be commonly found on ebay. I've yet to see a decent fake of the 1916/1966 medals that would fool an experienced collector.

What you do see here are original medals that have been messed around with;spurious casualty numbers and names engraved onto them. These are much harder to detect. You also find original medals that have had ribbons replaced and while not fakes in themselves are not as desireable as the untouched 1940/60s versions. Also original medals that come with "add ons"-photos, cap badges, buttons etc that may or may not have belonged to the original owner. In these cases its really up to the collector themselves to be happy with the source before he hands over any money.

[irishcollector2008]

Hello Gentlemen,

I agree with Molders on what he is saying regarding the 1916 medals, I am a serious collector myself through the years I have found out that the only way you can seriously fake these medals is by having the exact machine that made these in 1941. There are tell tale signs on fake 1916 medals.

The only fake 1916 medal that I have ever seen was 16 grams in weight and had a line on the edges of it that showed it had been joined in two parts.

Recently I have contacted reliable sources and they have confirmed that there is no way that anyone can get the weight of these medals 100% correct.

Thanks

[Canuck64]

Hello Gentlemen and good day to all. I have been reading your posts on Irish medals and I would like to ask several questions if I may. Firstly, I purchased a 1917-1921 War of Independence Medal about 35 years ago from a small antique dealer in Elora Ontario. Was wondering if thier is any way to check that it is an original and not a copy. It does not have a Cormac bar, so my understanding is that, it was issued for non active service. I can post photo's if that would help. Secondly, my Grandfather served in the British army until 1921 (Royal Irish Rifles). Upon disbandment of Irish regiments in British service he joined the Free State Army. Saw active service from 1921 on until his death in 1932. Would he be entitled to any medals from the Irish government? Further, I am unsure whether he ever claimed any medals he may have been entitled to. Is their a way of finding out if he had claimed any medals and where could I enquire? Thank you for any information you may be able to provide. Joe Dillon

[irishmedals]

I'm afraid it is only the matter of time before top quality fake medals are produced. Even now on Ebay we see named/numbered engraving on the reverse of Irish medals, the font is perfect just like the originals because lazer engraving machines can replicate old fonts perfectly.

If people can fake ornate and decorative medals from the likes of England, France and USA then doing an Irish 1916 or 1921 would be easy as they are of simple design and makeup. Dipped in acid and they will have an aged patina. Sooner, rather than later prefect fakes will be in the marketplace and unfortunate buyers will be ripped-off.

I like to think i'm an experienced collector of Irish medals but would not buy another medal from Ebay unless i knew the seller personally or the medal had 100% provenance with lots of supporting paperwork. As Molders also said, the 'add-ons' - make of those as you wish!

As always, BUYER BEWARE!

[pet]

Gentlemen

As an under bidder at this auction I was disappointed not to add this fantastic and complete collection to my own. I spoke afterwards with the winning bidder (who was unknown to me) and he indicated he may sell off some of the minor items individually but he was keeping the main (medal) set himself.

Why is he breaking the medals up now?

They did not sell as a full set on ebay recently as the main collectors where probably all represented at the auction, had reached there maximum mid, and thus knew his ebay reserve must be about ?24,000 to make him a profit after Whyte's charges.

Did he think that someone new would appear on ebay and buy the set (less some of its items) for a value higher than what he paid plus commission?

Or did he plan to break it up and try to make a profit from the start.

This would introduce speculative bidding at the highest price level of 1916 collector's memorabilia in order to profit off those same collectors and at a loss to the medals recipient memories.

I do not disapprove of buying and selling these items as no one would be able to join this hobby otherwise; however I do not approve of breaking up such a medal set.

Most of us spend time and energy trying to put pieces of the jig saw that is 1916 memorabilia together as opposed to scattering them on the four winds.

hi all im a medal collector and im concerned about the easter rising medals and the black n tan medals being faked by a guy in northern ireland,pet

[pet]

ive been collecting medals for 15 years im well known in northern ireland most if not all easter rising and black n tan medals being sold on ebay from northern ireland are fakes it breaks my heart to see this as our history and heritage is being robbed by these cowboys,it means that the generations of youth coming behind us will be confused at what medal is right and what is wrong,its about time we got something sorted as ive been silent to long ive been at a fair in belfast recently when a respectable gentleman bought a 1916 easter rising medal from one of these cowboys i described above when it was found out that it was fake the respectable gentleman returned the medal to this cowboy the cowboys reply was this is not the medal i sold you,this cowboy was haranged out of this collectors fair never to return and my heart went out to the respectable gentleman he lost about ?2,000.pounds now this is wrong,these easter rising medals,black n tan medals ,the cum na bawn brooches,lapel badges are being faked in a big way im telling all you collectors please lsten to me as there is big money being made here .

[pet]

There has been much talk of fake medals appearing recently but any I've seen in Dublin are of the type to be commonly found on ebay. I've yet to see a decent fake of the 1916/1966 medals that would fool an experienced collector.

What you do see here are original medals that have been messed around with;spurious casualty numbers and names engraved onto them. These are much harder to detect. You also find original medals that have had ribbons replaced and while not fakes in themselves are not as desireable as the untouched 1940/60s versions. Also original medals that come with "add ons"-photos, cap badges, buttons etc that may or may not have belonged to the original owner. In these cases its really up to the collector themselves to be happy with the source before he hands over any money.

hi my good man ive seen named black n tan medals in belfast and the name does not match any of the records they are being faked big time and it seems that the fakes are coming from belfast itself my dear fellow collector any irish rising medal or black n tan medal,lapel badges and cumm nabawn brooches ,tunic bottons that you see on ebay stay clear as they are not right and our hobby is expensive enough without being conned by these cowboy,there is even zippo petrol lightrs with the black n tan medal lazer ingraved to the face of the lighter if they can do this sort of work what can they not do.my dear pal be careful

[pet]

I'm afraid it is only the matter of time before top quality fake medals are produced. Even now on Ebay we see named/numbered engraving on the reverse of Irish medals, the font is perfect just like the originals because lazer engraving machines can replicate old fonts perfectly.

If people can fake ornate and decorative medals from the likes of England, France and USA then doing an Irish 1916 or 1921 would be easy as they are of simple design and makeup. Dipped in acid and they will have an aged patina. Sooner, rather than later prefect fakes will be in the marketplace and unfortunate buyers will be ripped-off.

I like to think i'm an experienced collector of Irish medals but would not buy another medal from Ebay unless i knew the seller personally or the medal had 100% provenance with lots of supporting paperwork. As Molders also said, the 'add-ons' - make of those as you wish!

As always, BUYER BEWARE!

my dear friend i really njoyed reading what you had to say and i agree totally as ive seen fakes at fairs in belfast and believe me they are very good most of the irish rising medals ,black n tan medals ,that are on ebay from belfast or northern ireland are faked as ive seen a few people being caught by these cowboys there is one cowboy in particular who was haranged out of a collectors fair in belfast its strange when at a collectors fair a cowboy seller has 25 irish rising n black ntan medals most named to recipents that do not correspond with irish records i feel sorry to buyers over seas as they might have a few dodgy medals in there collections its time for these guys to get these checked,pet.

[pet]

Hello Gentlemen,

I agree with Molders on what he is saying regarding the 1916 medals, I am a serious collector myself through the years I have found out that the only way you can seriously fake these medals is by having the exact machine that made these in 1941. There are tell tale signs on fake 1916 medals.

The only fake 1916 medal that I have ever seen was 16 grams in weight and had a line on the edges of it that showed it had been joined in two parts.

Recently I have contacted reliable sources and they have confirmed that there is no way that anyone can get the weight of these medals 100% correct.

Thanks

my good man i njoyed reading your post but sir believe me belfast is coming down with fake easter rising medals and black n tan medals my only advicei can give to you as from one fellow collector to another do not buy any of these medals from ebay belfast or northern ireland even though they look real believe me my friend im a member of a military medal collectors club in lisburn northern ireland and two of our group have been caught out by these fakes to the total of ?4,000 now thats big money in any working mans bubget,i hope you njoy my reply,pet.

[pet]

I think there is more a fear of fakes than actual fakes but as in the case of a 1916 medal when you are paying that much cash then you are right to fear a fake, who wants to pay that sort of money for a medal only to find it is worth virtually nothing. At the risk of repeating advice already given on this board, spend your money on a small archive and get to know what you are buying before you buy.

Several other threads have suggested that Auction Houses are the safest places to buy but read the small print, below is the text from the terms and conditions of one well known Dublin auction house and the rest are much the same.

'Representations or statements made by the Auctioneer in any Catalogue as to contribution, authorship, genuineness, source, origin, date, age, provenance, condition or estimated selling price or value is a statement of opinion only. Neither the Auctioneer nor its employees, servants or agents shall be responsible for the accuracy of any such opinions. Every person interested in a Lot must exercise and rely on their own judgment and opinion as to such matters.'

If you buy it from a dealer, on Ebay, at an auction or from a man you met on the street, if you know what you are buying before you but you will be alright.

hi sir the fear of fakes is not fake its for real northern ireland is comind down with these good fakes it hard to tell them apart my advice from one medal collector to another is not to buy any from belfast or northern ireland ebayers as ive seen people hand out mad sums of money for rubbish and as a medal collector my self this is so disheartning i hope iv helped in some way,pet.

[Irish1916]

with these good fakes it hard to tell them apart my advice from one medal collector to another is not to buy any from belfast or northern ireland ebayers ,pet.

I moved my posting to the correct "Easter Rising Medals" forum,Sorry for my error, Irish1916

Edited November 22, 2008 by Irish1916

[PKeating]

There is no such thing as the perfect fake. And anyone who cannot tell the difference between old, traditional hand or machine engraving and laser engraving ought to think about learning how to do so.

PK

[Irish1916]

Gentlemen, I have been asked to try and date this supposedly "Irish Citizen Army" gathering photograph. The gentleman at the front would appear to be wearing a pair of medals, suggesting a post 1941 photograph. Your thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks

[leigh kitchen]

The civilian clothes worn by the man far left & others suggest the 1940's / 1950's?

[Kev in Deva]

A couple of points I noted:-

To my eyes there is,

1. Electric advertising sign above the door.

2. If the make of car can be identified it would give a date.

3. Style of clothes as Leigh points out late 40's to 50's.

4. To my eyes it looks like a couple of others may have medals as well.

6. The boots look to be Irish Army Military issue circa LDF period / Post WW2.

7. The rear rank look very young possibly the group is drawn from the Irish Defence Forces for a St. Patricks Day Parade,

I would suggest contacting the Irish Defence Forces Records Office.

Kevin in Deva.

[leigh kitchen]

I failed to recognise the car as a car- I studied it & thoyght it was railings.

Could this be more an IRA or patriotic than an army commemoration parade Kev? I'm not clued up on this subject, but the man front left looks very like the film representations of IRA in films of the 40's, & the 2 figures standing in the road to the right, in trench coats.......

[Paul L Murphy]

Could this be a re-enactment or parade as part of the 50th anniversary celebrations in 1966 ?

[Brendan]

Could this be a re-enactment or parade as part of the 50th anniversary celebrations in 1966 ?

I think Paul may be right, it is part of the 1966 commemoration of the 1916 Rising. Although I was only 5 years old at the time I remember there was a march past the GPO of Veterans of the Rising. All of the various organizations were represented such as the Irish Volunteers, Citizen Army, Fianna Eireann and so on. I think the photo might have been taken in Parnell Square, as far as I can remember each group of Veterans stopped outside the garden of remembrance for some form of ceremony, I know the gardens opened in 1966 but as far as I can remember the ceremony took place on the street, maybe the gardens were not finished in time for the commemorations. Descendants of Veterans took part in the parade to represent their relatives who were either killed during the Rising or had died since 1916, I think this accounts for some of the Veterans looking too young to have taken part in the Rising.

[Irish1916]

Thank you all for the excellent opinions, I will link this forum on to the gentleman who sent me the photograph. His grandfather is in the group and he was an ICA member in Easter week 1916, which ties in perfectly with Brendan?s suggestion (however I think the grandson said he didn?t have the 1966 medal). His research has subsequently led him to a brother-in-law of the man in the photograph who was a GPO killed in action. I will leave the rest of the storey and his investigations for him to post , regards Paul

[Phill]

It is my Wife?s Granddad who is in the picture he is directly behind the front Mans left shoulder, his name Ellett Elmes he passed away in 1958, so unfortunately cannot be the 66 celebrations.

He is named in the reference book, Frongoch: University of Revolution by Sean O' Mahony, words from the book as follows

He is named on Page 46 as one of the Protestants in Frongoch. He is also mentioned on page 123:

"The British now tried a new scheme whereby prisoners were offered conditional offers of liberty which meant that they would be released if they signed a written guarantee that they would keep the peace. Of the 600 remaining prisoners, only 3 opted for this. The first was an Irish Citizen Army man, Ellett Elmes, who signed the approved undertaking on the 24 October and further a bond in the amount of ?25 was executed by a Church of Ireland Minister, Rev E H Lews-Crosby, from Rathmines on his behalf."

His Brother in Law Henry Coyle, F Company, 2nd Battalion, Dublin Brigade, was 28 years of age. He was a well-known member of the Davis Hurling team. He was mortally wounded in Moore Lane, and died in the arms of the O'Rahilly. He left a widow. His baby boy was born after his death and named Henry O'Rahilly Coyle. He is buried in Glasnevin Cemetery, Dublin. http://nga.ie/new_page_2.htm

Any more help would be greatfull

Phill

[Phill]

Enlarged photo of the rear rank, they seem elderly?

Phill

[leigh kitchen]

Look like the older men are mixed in both ranks

[molders]

The Irish Independent of Tuesday April 23, 1935 has a photo with the caption;

"President De Valera inspecting the firing party of 1916 men before the unveiling of the Memorial in the G.P.O." The firing party looks quite like the guys in that photo. The only thing about that doesn't add up about this guess is that some of the men in the 1935 firing party photo are wearing 1916 armbands and I can't see any in the photo under discussion. You can read about the GPO unveiling if you search on the Irish Times website (www.irishtimes.ie), for the 23rd/4/1935 and use DeValera as the keyword but the Independent website doesn't seem to have the same feature (www.independent.ie)

If I had to guess at the location where the photo was taken I'd say that it looks like Gardiner Street, (but it could be somewhere else long since demolished), if it is Gardiner Street another guess is that it may be connected with the unveiling of the memorial to the 2nd Battalion Dublin Brigade which is at the rear of the Custom House. I've seen photos taken at the unveiling of that statue and the firing party then was made up of similarly kitted out men.