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Gordon Williamson

1914 Clasp to 1870 EK

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Here's something else to ponder. Some seem to have the little "dots" around the frame with a hollow centre, others seem solid, and it seems to be somethig you see on both "flared" and non flared pieces.

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Guest Brian von Etzel

Here's something else to ponder. Some seem to have the little "dots" around the frame with a hollow centre, others seem solid, and it seems to be somethig you see on both "flared" and non flared pieces.

Yes, and those are some pretty small little dots which required an immense amount of die making time! I think one of the things people who might not be sure about these is not aware of is the size of these little EKs relative to eg a full sized EKII.

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Guest Brian von Etzel

I expected that once I took a look at the reverse, it would become obvious whether flared or flat was the one to go for....

Naturally, that was far from the case........ :angry:

A compilation of our collective maker marks - check the amazing variation in the formation of the Moons, the shape of the J's, the spacing between letters or words, and the missing 'periods' on some of these examples... etc... etc...

[attachmentid=14116]

My guess is these are all from the same stamp. Consider: It appers some of the characters appear different based on the depth of the stamp. Mine is the one in ' F '. Looks like a heavy handed stamp. What IF the letters flared out as they neared the base of the stamp. Then the deeper the stamp the more the letters would appear flared as does mine. And the ones not so deep not flared.

Edited by Brian von Etzel

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I think the variations from mark to mark were not made by the same stamp. If you study them letter by letter... there are variances that i do not think can be explained by how forceful the application of the mark itself was. There are some with malformed letters that would be malformed in each example if they were from the same die tool....

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Guest Brian von Etzel

I think the variations from mark to mark were not made by the same stamp. If you study them letter by letter... there are variances that i do not think can be explained by how forceful the application of the mark itself was. There are some with malformed letters that would be malformed in each example if they were from the same die tool....

I've seen stamps where the letters/numbers seemed to flare as they neared the base. Provides a more rigid, stable structure.

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I've seen stamps where the letters/numbers seemed to flare as they neared the base. Provides a more rigid, stable structure.

Right, every metal stamp I have ever seen is made this way. I believe it is mainly to try to give the stamp a longer life so that it would not easily break or crack. Some still do over a period of time, especially if mishandled, dropped etc. Therefore a deeply applied stamp would also show the letters closer together than a weak strike. There are just too many similarities to ignore. I don't care how good a die maker was, for him to hand cut a stamp , that tiny, that had almost every letter virtually the same as another previously made stamp is a one in a million chance. Being a hand cut stamp, some letters may look slightly different since instead of the tip, the area below the tip is creating the final outline of that letter. Using the letter "A" as an example of a stamp (viewed from the side). On a deep stamp, instead of the tip of the A making the final shape of the letter it is the area down near the bar making the final design of the letter. And that area may look slightly different since the stamp is hand cut.

Dan Murphy

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Marshall,

You mentioned the "J"s. I have noticed that every piece with a short "hook" on the J also has the clipped/chipped half moon and the the flat side of the clipped moon is in a straight line with the front edge of the short hook on the J. They are also all on pieces missing the period after the W. Since the front edge of the hook and the front edge of the clipped moon are in a perfectly straight line this is very possibly damage that happened at the same time as that on the moon. Something as simple as a file used to clean off some rust or a rough spot, that made contact with the lettering etc. on one side could be responsible. On a stamp with lettering this small, the slightest thing could affect it. This is of course only theory and there could be another reason. Perhaps if there was a tool and die maker on the forum, or someone who knew one, we could get a more professional opinion. There has to be a logical reason for this and mine may not be it. :speechless:

Edited by Daniel Murphy

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...Now, looking at the other letters, all of the maker marks appear to be made with the same stamp (or more than one virtually identical stamps with just a couple of different features. Since these would be hand made this is unlikely). Some are stamped deeper and some are weakly stamped, but there are many identical features are on all of the marks..... Dan Murphy

Hi Dan

I have no doubt that a flared base of the numerals & letters on a makers stamp, an inconsistancy between the depth of strikes and even the possibility of worn or broken maker mark stamps makes for a good arguement......

...but would that sufficiently explain the huge discrepancy in distance between 'BERLIN' & 'W' on these two examples.... not to mention TWO completely missing 'periods'.... same obverse remember...

IMO, unlikely...

[attachmentid=14221]

Edited by Biro

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Guest Brian von Etzel

I think Gordon said long ago and I totally agree, it's unlikely a company the size of, in this example, Wagner, had only one stamp. Is the piece lying on its side exactly like the others on the obverse? If so, I'd simply imagine two stamps. If anything, another POSITIVE for originality. I'd sooner imagine a faker had one stamp than Wagner had one stamp.

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I would concur gentleman that there was probably more than one stamp. But then we have a situation that these were (theoretically) made in such small batches what then would be the probability that one worker was using more than one tool variation to mark a batch of identical pieces?

Might I suggest you take your mark comparisons one step further and compare these markings to the silver maker plates found on the back of all Imperial Prussian Railway Long Service Badges? Might make the smples a little more diverse and interesting. They were made during the same era, by the same (one) maker and all bear similar marks as these repeat bars!

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Guest Brian von Etzel

Might I suggest you take your mark comparisons one step further and compare these markings to the silver maker plates found on the back of all Imperial Prussian Railway Long Service Badges? Might make the smples a little more diverse and interesting. They were made during the same era, by the same (one) maker and all bear similar marks as these repeat bars!

Who has one of these lying around? This the ONLY other piece by Wagner that used this stamp type?

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Hi Brian, you will also find almost the same stamp on the WW1 Ehrenbechers! (at least the early silver ones)

The interesting thing is that the early WW2 Luftwaffe Ehrenbechers ALSO bear the Wagner silver stamps, including the CROWN!

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Guest Brian von Etzel

Hi Brian, you will also find almost the same stamp on the WW1 Ehrenbechers! (at least the early silver ones)

The interesting thing is that the early WW2 Luftwaffe Ehrenbechers ALSO bear the Wagner silver stamps, including the CROWN!

I get home tonight I'll unbolt my Ehrenbecher from the hood of my Dodge Ram and check out the bottom. I hope it's the same type. Mine is plated not the earlier solid silver type.

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I get home tonight I'll unbolt my Ehrenbecher from the hood of my Dodge Ram and check out the bottom....

A novel storage idea Brian!! :lol:

Just a few more bits and pieces to add to this thread....

For what it's worth, I'm also an advocate of multiple maker mark stamping tools being a totally feasable and practical method of operation for a busy manufacturer like Wagner....

I couldn't find a good picture of the bottom of a WW1 Ehrenbecher anywhere, but as Stogieman pointed out, the WW2 Ehrenpokal also by Wagner features the same 'marking protocol' as the 1914 Weiderholungsspange.

[attachmentid=14302]

While the silver content marks etc... are much more styalised and not comparable to the 1914 WHS, it may be worth noting the consistancy in Wagners maker marks on these 4 randomly selected Goblets .... but that may be a product of the era.

You'll also note that top right below is an Honor Salver mark, the other three from later Plated Goblets...and again, I would be hard pressed to find any difference between the marks on the goblets and the mark on the Salver. A remarkable consistancy.

[attachmentid=14304]

And last, the only VERY rough pictures I could find of the much more relevant Prussian 25 yr Railway Badge.

There is more than a hint of similarity with the WHS marks here..... but it may be of interest to some that the bottom left Weiderholungsspange FAILED it's Detlev COA!

[attachmentid=14305]

regards

MARSHALL

Edited by Biro

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Fast work Biro, fast and interesting! Anybody else with Railway Badges we can get pix of the marks from please? Brian, I use mine to feed the dogs....

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I'm not a tool maker but I do work in the metal industry and I'm just trying to think logically here.

To make a stamp 90 odd years ago it may have taken 1 person about 2 weeks to complete and would naturally as already mentioned, have been made by hand. Bearing this in mind, if several stamps were made they would all be slightly different, also previously mentioned.

The stamp would have been hardened so any oxidisation would probably have been removed with a fine emery cloth. Saying that, if we let gauge blocks etc. get rusty it usually means we are sloppy or working for a sloppy outfit but, it does happen.

Depending on how many Spangen were issued would be a judge of how many stamps were made. I would guess at only 2 stamps for several thousand spangen not forgetting that the appearance would change after wear and tear. How many other Wagner manufactured pieces have the same variations and stamp size? If they are all the same size then they may have had a large number of stamps over time but only 1 or 2 people in the department would stamp the pieces I think.

All the characters on a stamp would be bevelled, this is to avoid damage to the tempered surface. Am I correct in assuming that flared is bevelled?

A modern stamp is used about 10000 times before being replaced, reworking is only carried out if a digit or letter is changed. A new stamp would only cost about 80 EUR to produce today (I'm talking about a simple stamp with numbers, letters or half moons and crowns etc.), the materials back then wouldn't have been as good as today and as mentioned before, 1 man working for about 2 weeks on 1 stamp could have been rather expensive, if a company was to make a number of stamps it would have to be for a large number of pieces e.g. same stamping variations on most Wagner items.

All speculation on my part and just the point of view from a metalworker.

Tony

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Marshall wrote:

"I couldn't find a good picture of the bottom of a WW1 Ehrenbecher anywhere, but as Stogieman pointed out, the WW2 Ehrenpokal also by Wagner features the same 'marking protocol' as the 1914 Weiderholungsspange. "

I have a steel one (with nary a trace of -ever- having been plated at all) that has a stamp/Stempel makers marks that has a diameter of about 13mms. In the center is an perched eagle with spread wings, and around the edge or rim of the stamp is very small lettering. The steel surface shows considerable oxidization, and consequently I'll have to work on the lighting techniques to get the best possible shot of the stamp. I'll need a day or so to get the photo(s) and post them.

It's setting in a glass dome with some moisture absorbant packetts, and getting it out and taking photos should be much easier for me to do, than Brian going through all the trouble of unbolting his from the hood of his Dodge Ram.

Les

Addendum: The eagle is the type found on the later style award document(s) for the RAO, HOH, PlM, and so on. Starting at about the 7 o'clock position and running around the edge is what appears to be "Chef des Flugwesens". No other script or makers marks present.

Edited by Les

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Here is one from my files. An 1870 Grand Cross that was posted on another forum. This was said to have been made around 1900 or later. Since we are only interested in pursuing knowledge here, I hope the member does not mind.

Dan Murphy

IPB Image

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Guest Brian von Etzel

Unless copyrighted and when posted on a forum, it's out there baby. If the guy minds now or not is really not relevant unless we are to be gentlemen at the expense of truth, justice and the panEuropean way.

From a little more than a casual glance, the letters in Berlin look very very much the same.

What was the consensus on this Grand Cross? "Museum copy"? I'd sure like to see the entire cross. The veracity of this cross says a lot about this pariticular mark.

The crown on the cross core looks marvelous. This does not look like a schlocky copy.

Edited by Brian von Etzel

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.....this is almost like a peep show...

Then I can probably help you with a full frontal Joe!!

My friend Tony (Tiger1) sent me pictures of this 1870 and two other GC's a while ago. I have his permission to post them and can assure you he is more than willing to participate in the discussion with us....

Unless circumstances have changed, this particular GC is not in his collection... it belongs to a friend of his.

The information I have on the photo Tony kindly sent me estimates this 1870 GC to be copies made circa 1914-18... which of course in terms of the near identical maker mark, fits our picture (one way or another) very nicely!

I will let Tony fill you in on the specifics, as I do not have all the facts....

As an aside, I also have new pictures from Tony's impressive collection of an extremely interesting example of a Joh Wagner marked 1914 Weiderholungsspange.... interesting because despite having essentially the same looking obverse and reverse as the others in this thread, uniquely, Tony's does not appear to feature either the 'cats paw' or the 'circular swirl' I illustrated earlier on in this thread.

Neither, for that matter, does it have ANY silver stamp, crown, or moon. Again, I have Tony's permission to post pics of this piece, but I will wait for slightly more detailed photo's to arrive.

Work away.....!!

Marshall

Edited by Biro

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Guest Brian von Etzel

Way to go Tony and Marshal. I hope Gordon gets back in on this one. This is very interesting. The missing link perhaps.

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Anybody see this one pop up this AM? Anyone know the history of this piece?

Photo courtesy of Detlev Niemann, Hamburg

Grandcross of the Iron Cross 1914 [4753] Sold State II

Iron core, fine silver frame. width 61 mm. Very good details and quality. This cross is illustrated in several reference books as period second issue or museum display cross. With nice ribbon.

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