Luftmensch Posted September 27, 2005 Share Posted September 27, 2005 Can anyone confirm whether Werner Moelders received an Ehrenpokal? Did any Spanish Civil War aces get Honor Goblets, or was it not the practice to give them retroactively for kills made years before?RgdsJohn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luftmensch Posted September 27, 2005 Author Share Posted September 27, 2005 (edited) Further to the above, I ask because I acquired some years ago a cased Ehrenpokal from a Canadian museum. The goblet is unnamed but finely engraved with a posthumous presentation from Hitler to Moelders (dated August 1942) and presented to JG 51. Apparently it turned up in their baggage train in East Prussia at war's end. I'm trying to reconstruct the logic behind such an award. Hardfin & Wolfe owned the piece in the 1980s, you can still see it in the binder they take to shows. There is also a photo of it in Tom Johnson's War Booty book, Schiffer edition. I will post pictures if anybody is interested.RgdsJohn Edited September 27, 2005 by Luftmensch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted September 27, 2005 Share Posted September 27, 2005 this one ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luftmensch Posted September 27, 2005 Author Share Posted September 27, 2005 this one ?If it's not the same it's a close cousin. I have to dig mine out of storage and check the alignment of the engraving. But I think you've got it--or should I say I hope you don't have another one! What's the current feeling about what this is?RgdsJohn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luftmensch Posted September 27, 2005 Author Share Posted September 27, 2005 Jacques, what is your source on the photo? I will post close-ups of my HG tomorrow... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luftmensch Posted September 29, 2005 Author Share Posted September 29, 2005 The case... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luftmensch Posted September 29, 2005 Author Share Posted September 29, 2005 The goblet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luftmensch Posted September 29, 2005 Author Share Posted September 29, 2005 Close-ups... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luftmensch Posted September 29, 2005 Author Share Posted September 29, 2005 Engraving...note incised marks inside each letter... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luftmensch Posted September 29, 2005 Author Share Posted September 29, 2005 The base... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luftmensch Posted September 29, 2005 Author Share Posted September 29, 2005 My questions are:1. Did Moelders receive an Honor Goblet while he was alive?2. Were aircrew awarded HGs for kills in Spain or in 1939 retroactively?3. Are there many unnamed genuine HGs floating around?4. Are there any other known squadron awards of HGs or presentation pieces from Hitler / Goering?5. Is August 1942 significant? What month was JG 51 awarded the designation / cufftitle "Molders" ?Any information would be appreciated.RgdsJohn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brian von Etzel Posted September 29, 2005 Share Posted September 29, 2005 (edited) The goblet is unnamed but finely engraved with a posthumous presentation from Hitler to Moelders (dated August 1942) and presented to JG 51. Apparently it turned up in their baggage train in East Prussia at war's end. I'm trying to reconstruct the logic behind such an award. JohnI think a good thing it's 'unnamed'. The engraving there would be, I think, be difficult to erase. That it is posthumous piece and to the unit seems plausable. What we see is not Moelder's HG but a cup given to a unit in remembrance, not unplausable. An HG to place in the mess to honor Moelders perhaps. Is the photo in Johnson's book one where the piece is shown by allied soldiers in the forties or a modern photo? Edited September 29, 2005 by Brian von Etzel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luftmensch Posted September 29, 2005 Author Share Posted September 29, 2005 (edited) Modern photos, supplied by Messrs. Hardin and Wolfe. One explanation is that Hitler gave the squadron an Ehrenpokal instead of some other piece of engraved silver because Moelders never received his. That is why I am asking basic questions about the awarding of these goblets to early aces.RgdsJohnThese came with the cup... Edited September 29, 2005 by Luftmensch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
François SAEZ Posted October 1, 2005 Share Posted October 1, 2005 My opinion, only:My questions are:1. Did Moelders receive an Honor Goblet while he was alive?2. Were aircrew awarded HGs for kills in Spain or in 1939 retroactively?NO3. Are there many unnamed genuine HGs floating around?Some year ago (8-10 years), several goblet were found with no name engraved (never had one) - some times laterrr several goblets for RK (and more) winners appear on the market. Best example is that H. Kuntz's goblet was offered for sale while his goblet (original) was still with him.4. Are there any other known squadron awards of HGs or presentation pieces from Hitler / Goering?To my knowmedge, awards no, docs yes.5. Is August 1942 significant? What month was JG 51 awarded the designation / cufftitle "Molders" ?20 december 1941Any information would be appreciated.RgdsJohn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted October 1, 2005 Share Posted October 1, 2005 Jacques, what is your source on the photo? I will post close-ups of my HG tomorrow...Sorry, but I don't remember where I picked up this pic. jacques Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
François SAEZ Posted October 1, 2005 Share Posted October 1, 2005 Sorry, but I don't remember where I picked up this pic. jacquesSeveral "M?lder's engraved goblets" appeared some years ago, at this time, one was even proposed on ebay for $10,000 - possibly the one shown by Jacques, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luftmensch Posted October 1, 2005 Author Share Posted October 1, 2005 (edited) Several "M?lder's engraved goblets" appeared some years agoAs an Ehrenpokal expert with a website you took, I'm sure, precise observations on these unusual cups, even printing out the eBay listing for your records. Would you share more details? For example,How many is several?What makes them "Molders" cups?Were they presentation pieces or cups with "Molders" name engraved on the base? If they had special engraving, what was engraved? Were they all the same? In the same style? With the same engraver's hand?Please be more precise. Even en francais if you prefer.RgdsJohn Edited October 1, 2005 by Luftmensch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
François SAEZ Posted October 1, 2005 Share Posted October 1, 2005 Can you be more specific?More specific, I don't knowSome years ago a M?lder's goblet appeared on the german market, one in the UK, one on ebay US, Jacques has pics of one (granted it is maybe one of them), you have onewhich means:- 5 gobletsor- only 2 assuming that the one offered on ebay in the one which showed in Germany and the UKIn both cases, there is more than one.Please, note that I don't refer to authenticity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luftmensch Posted October 1, 2005 Author Share Posted October 1, 2005 More specific, I don't know"Molders" - do you mean identical to mine or named "Molders" on the base? All identical? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luftmensch Posted October 1, 2005 Author Share Posted October 1, 2005 Oh, well. I would keep a more detailed record of these odd cups in future to keep track of what the fakers are up to. There is a telltale signature to the little you describe, however. Many new reproductions in Eastern Europe are rolled out first in German auctions then, if they don't sell, in London, then in US markets, where it is the easiest to pass even badly made fakes.As for my HG, its provenance dates back to the mid 1960s, and Hardin & Wolfe owned it in the early 1980s. I wonder if fakers copied what they saw in the War Booty book? But I would need you to clarify what you mean by "Molders" cup and where Jacques got his picture.RgdsJohn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Temple-West Posted October 1, 2005 Share Posted October 1, 2005 I find the ?Honour Goblet? quite confusing. Yes, we have a stunning, fully marked 835 silver goblet. We also have a picture, supplied by Jacques, of what appears to be a different goblet in the later silver plate (alpaca) form, both with the same dedication and seemingly engraved by the same hand. Not a good sign.As far as the date (August ?42) is concerned? It doesn?t seem to tie up to anything of interest, as far as I can see.Dates. M?lders date of birth. 18th March 1913.Awarded Knights Cross. 27th May 1940Awarded Oak leaves. 20th September 1940Awarded Swords. 22nd June 1941Awarded Diamonds. 15th July 1941100th kill. ? ?Death. 22nd November 1941JG 51 was bestowed the honour name "M?lders". 20th December 1941.I have looked through everything I can find on M?lders and can find no mention of a goblet having been awarded. Seeing that he was on a ?fast track? to be being made a Nations Hero, I would have thought that every minute detail would have been documented. As far as the photo?s with A.H are concerned, all part of the propaganda machine. I bet the caption would read something like ? Our beloved Fuhrer seen with the Luftwaffe?s Air Ace, Werner "Vati" M?lders. My questions would be;Why would Hitler make a presentation, with such a personal dedication, to the squadron that were bestowed the honour title of ?M?lders? some eight months before. If the goblet had been dated to coincide with the honour naming, I would have found the piece a little more convincing.Why is there more than one goblet?If more than one goblet was made, why would there one in pure silver and another in the later silver plate?Possible answers;The silver example is genuine, (this would be the quality expected of a gift from the Fuhrer) which is going to be extremely hard to prove without provenance.That someone, post-war, has bought up a quantity of unnamed goblets (both silver and alpaca) and had them engraved. This, IMO, is the most likely explanation.Again, this is only an opinion and some thoughts. I am sure that there will be someone who will have the answer. In the meantime, keep up the research and keep us informed on any developments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted October 1, 2005 Share Posted October 1, 2005 As I said I can't remember where I found that pic, but there are 2 in the book "german war booty" (Wolfe & Hardin one) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luftmensch Posted October 1, 2005 Author Share Posted October 1, 2005 (edited) Excellent questions, John, that I have chewed over myself.Provenance, fortunately and otherwise, begins in the 1960s. What was an HG worth then? Cheaper to buy a goblet to fake up but also less return for your effort.It is intriguing that Hitler might have presented this premier squadron with a goblet for more recent services in Russia if Molders never received one--as opposed to a salver or any other piece of silver. If I read Francois right, there are documents testifying to the existence of other presentation Ehrenpokale. My field is WW1 aviation. Interesting that you ID Jacques' photo as Alpaca. That would suggest a desire to economise. It would really be instructive to see close-ups of the engraving style. I don't know if Hardin & Wolfe's photos show enough detail to copy from. My photos do. You can see that the style of lettering is very distinctive and fine for Nazi period silver. When in doubt I often take refuge in quality of engraving. I suspect the goblet that appeared in different countries is one and the same, not as well engraved, and went unsold. It is self-defeating for a faker to make multiple copies to the same ace. There is a new species of Prussian flight badge with Taube all fretted out, but each has a different RK recipient engraved on the reverse.Amazingly the JG 51 Squadron museum do NOT want to correspond on issues related to the Nazi period, nor does the Luftwaffe Museum in Gatow.I think the next clue will come from deciphering the meaning of "August 1942." I disagree with you that the December 1941 date would be more convincing, as with any more obvious date such as Molders birthday, death day, or a squadron anniversary. The faker has his choice. This obscure date is, to me, less obvious and more promising. Did JG 51 distinguish itself in the month of August 1942 in Russia, in some combat catergory? Best rgds,John Edited October 1, 2005 by Luftmensch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
François SAEZ Posted October 1, 2005 Share Posted October 1, 2005 .... If I read Francois right, there are documents testifying to the existence of other presentation Ehrenpokale. .. My JohnSorry John I was not clear"4. Are there any other known squadron awards of HGs or presentation pieces from Hitler / Goering?To my knowmedge, awards no, docs yes."I was refering to Genera swords,Formal document to RK;OL ...HG document (early) signed by Goering (in red) or Milch.../...The award is the regular one, only the doc and the fact H or G are at the ceremony makes it special.I have NEVER seen nor hear of another Ehrenpokal like your or the one on ebayReaaders, the base of the Ehrenpokal can be found at http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/service_aw...oblet/first.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
François SAEZ Posted October 1, 2005 Share Posted October 1, 2005 ....Provenance, fortunately and otherwise, begins in the 1960s. What was an HG worth then? Cheaper to buy a goblet to fake up but also less return for your effort.....JohnFakes started before the end of WWII, a regular HG was maybe worth not much in 1960 but anything related to a famous ace was and is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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