Luftwaffe Moelder's Ehrenpokal

[Luftmensch]

Fakes started before the end of WWII, a regular HG was maybe worth not much in 1960 but anything related to a famous ace was and is.

Very true, and thanks for the clarification. With WW1 aviation badges, the early post-war fakes were usually done for the collector market by the same firms and cost a few dollars. But I've never seen an elaborate fake done with attribution from the 1940s and 1950s. I think the hobby was too small, the prices too low, and too many people were still alive who could sue! Maybe you can think of 3rd Reich examples. The really artistic fakes, such as today's fire gilded and enamelled Garde du Korps helmets and Faberge insignia, are now coming out in numbers because the prices of originals make such work profitable.

But everything is relative!

Rgds

John

P.S. Francois You have a magnificent collection. No room for even one WW1 Ehrenbecher?

Edited October 1, 2005 by Luftmensch

[François SAEZ]

...

John

P.S. You have a magnificent collection. No WW1 Ehrenbecher?

more of my collection is

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...ad.php?t=117254

Nothing (by choice) WWI related

Edited October 1, 2005 by Fran?ois SAEZ

[François SAEZ]

But I've never seen an elaborate fake done with attribution from the 1940s and 1950s. I...

Rgds

John

I don't want to sound pessimistic on your goblet for the simple fact that I am sure the goblet is right, the engraving, well I don't know and I don't pretend to know everything nor to tell people what to do or buy (it is enought difficult for my collection) but I will tell you (and everybody) that the best way to sell exotic items such silverwares is to have 0 reference available on them, then nothing to compare to.

Good fakes and very good exotica fakes existed in the 60's, believe me on that

Now believe or not it often more easy to detect a fake engraving made yesterday (with the best technology) than a fake or doctored engraving made in the 50's possibly with the same kind of tools and techonology used during WWII.

Again, I am not saying who is right or wrong, just giving another view

My best

[Luftmensch]

Now believe or not it often more easy to detect a fake engraving made yesterday (with the best technology) than a fake or doctored engraving made in the 50's possibly with the same kind of tools and techonology used during WWII.

I agree. In Manhattan today for all the money in the world you cannot buy engraving expertise that comes close to what was possible 100 or even 50 years ago. I don't know about London or Paris. I expect these are lost arts. Hitler would not have presented an Alpaca cup especially in 1942, so we can dismiss the other one without even seeing it.

Maybe if I pledge to donate it to JG 51 they'll tell me what it is...all I need is a veteran (are there any left?) to remember it amongst the squadron silver!

Rgds

[VtwinVince]

Hmmm, very interesting thread. I too am quite interested in these goblets, mainly through a family connection. There are a few unnamed examples floating around, as I know of one in a collection in Texas. Strangely enough, I was offered one of the Moelders examples about twenty years ago by none other than James "Ginger" Lacey, of Battle of Britain fame. I declined his offer. As an aside, I sincerely doubt that Hitler would have gone out of his way to make posthumous presentations to Moelders of any sort, given the very bad relationship that existed between the two. His death in November, 1941 must have come as a godsend to Hitler.

Now, if anyone can locate the Ehrenpokal awarded to my uncle, Hauptmann Dr. Albrecht Ochs, in October, 1940, I will give you my first born. Apparently it was "liberated" by US forces in 1945.

[dond]

The base...

Why does it have Imperial markings for purity on the bottom? I that normal for a TR piece?

Don

[Luftmensch]

Yes, Don, these are the standard hallmarks on the silver pokal.

Vince, what do you mean by "one of the Moelders" examples? Can you be more specific? As for a posthumous presentation requiring good feelings on Hitler's part, look what he did publicly for Rommel. It's all for effect--JG 51 pilots sporting Moelders' cufftitles was good for morale.

[Guest Rick Research]

Just for informational purposes, in the booklet "Fakes & Frauds Of The Third Reich: Second Edition" which came out, and I got, in the mist-shrouded past of 1971---

a letter is displayed from the owner of the "Friedrich Sedlatzek" firm (transplanted to Bavaria) dated 14 December 1968 advising that his firm could then-- 1968-- offer custom made (3 months turnaround) Honor Goblets in 900 silver for DM 1,200 or over $300.

In a subsequent letter (shown in the pamphlet) from the director of the "Sedlatzek" firm, dated 16 January 1970, he defends the quality of his company's product vis a vis several others currently (1970) producing them, and even posed for a photo hefting one-- sent on to happy well heeled customers unnamed.

I don't recall what REAL ones were going for then (missed a Panzer Oberleutnant's black wrapper tunic that summer for $49) but I seriously doubt they were THAT expensive!

Purely on John's logical point, it makes NO sense for a "personalized" presentation TO a long dead man. Hitler also had no "right" to bestow what was, after all, an official LUFTWAFFE presentation piece. This would be like Himmler giving out Uboat badges. It just does not make any sense.

[VtwinVince]

My mistake, Luftmensch, I just went through my "archives" and found the original letter. Lacey describes it as an "Honor Plaque" given by Moelders, not a Pokal. It sure sounds interesting, nonetheless. BTW does anyone have an accurate production figure for the Pokal, or is it guesswork?

[Luftmensch]

Purely on John's logical point, it makes NO sense for a presentation TO a dead man.

Edited November 23, 2005 by Luftmensch

[Luftmensch]

Edited November 23, 2005 by Luftmensch

[VtwinVince]

Agreed, Luftmensch, AH probably did have some respect for Vati, but since when did this stop the Fuehrer from having anyone who opposed him executed? A few famous names come to mind. A despot such as Hitler had little use for feelings as normal people understand them.

[Luftmensch]

Of course, that was his prerogative, too. But it wasn't really open season on German generals until 1944. I think Hitler, if he did order Bormann to back off Moelders, realized what an asset he would be in Russia--especially after Goering proved so worthless in the Battle of Britain. And whether he was assassinated or a victim of weather, I tend to subscribe to cock-ups over conspiracies in interpreting history!

Rgds