Turkey TURKEY. Order of the CRESCENT

[Veteran]

Hello everyone

Some time ago a set of Medjidj? with swords was shown here, and the response was absolutely wonderful. This is why I would like to submit this badge to the knowleageable scrutiny of connoisseurs of Turkish material.

This badge is gold and red enamel. Size 68x45mm, weight 22grs. No hallmark. It is attached to a full size neck ribbon, possibly early XIXth Century.

It could be of European manufacture.

What I have found about this order, crated by Selim IIIrd and awarded between 1799 and 1812, is scant. It appears to have gone first to British officers who fought the French during the Campaign in Egypt (Lord Nelson being the recipient of a first class with diamonds) ; and later to French instructors under General Sebastiani for their help against the Russians.

Four classes are mentioned to have existed. The French Imperial Almanach for 1855 mentions 7 holders of the Order, without any indication of classes.

Could this be a Second class badge ?. I really have nothing to go on except the pictures in Wahlen 1844.

Information about this order and badge will be gratefully received.

Regards

Veteran

[Ed_Haynes]

This contemporary Turkish award has NOTHING to do with the old Ottoman award (except, perhaps, a shared name, though one would need to know thE Turkish name of each).

[Veteran]

Thank you, Ed, for this entirely new lead. I was under the impression that Turkish orders had been done away by Kemal Ataturk.

I very much hope more information will become available.

Best regards

Veteran

Edited May 11, 2008 by Veteran

[Ed_Haynes]

All the Ottoman orders were swept aside under the Republic and it was the intent that the "new" Turkey have none. A complex set has, however, since been instituted.

See: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=15012

[Veteran]

Hello Ed

Dave Danner's interesting post shows the Commemoratives medals issued in Turkey since the Revolution, but no orders. Which of course confirms the fact that the Country decided to go without. It also brings me to ask what makes you think this is a modern Turkish Order ?

Admittedly, I am in true nead of reliable references. These would ideally be known specimens of the Order. Or good period pictures. The closest I have come to this is the illustration in PERROT, A.M. Collection historique des Ordres de chevalerie civils et militaires etc... Paris 1820

This picture was taken from that book.

The illustration is quite different from the piece I show, but its accuracy could be approximate, as are a number of others in this very early book.

The order I show has a rather "convincing" look. And it was not sold under any special pretence. Hopefully, further information will come forth.

Best regards

Veteran

[Ed_Haynes]

You must be very careful with many of these 19th-century illustrrations. There is more imagination and fantasy than historical widsom and, to be honest, the French sources are among the worse.

See:

http://www.turkishmedals.net/orders.htm#Turkish%20Crescent

http://www.turkishmedals.net/campmedals.htm#Egypt

For pretty reliable online sources.

For a real source (= a book), see Er?reten, Metin, Osmanli Madalyalari ve Nisanlari (Istanbul: Belgelere Tarihi, 2001), pp. 161-62 where he discusses the Vaka-i Mirriye Madalyasi (Hilai Nişani).

What you show at the beginning seems to be something else, quite modern, and possibly unofficial.

Edited May 12, 2008 by Ed_Haynes

[Veteran]

Ed, I tend to think you are right. Thank you very much.

I just found a good paper on the order of the Crescent, with pictures of early badges. All are round, with the central Crescent, quite similar to the illustration in the PERROT.

So the question is, what could this badge be ? Further information will be gratefully received. It is well made and finished.

Veteran

[Veteran]

Ed, I tend to think you are right. Thank you very much.

I just found a good paper on the order of the Crescent, with pictures of early badges. All are round, with the central Crescent, quite similar to the illustration in the PERROT.

So the question is, what could this badge be ? Further information will be gratefully received. It is well made and finished.

Veteran

[Great Dane]

Veteran, take a look in the latest auction catalog from Palthey (Palthey), lot no. 87 (text and picture).

It might provide more information.

/Mike

Edited May 14, 2008 by Great Dane

[Veteran]

Hello Mike

Brilliant suggestion, thank you. I have called Palthey and received the catalogue by e-mail. What a coinidence that another piece of the same kind pops up at auction in only a few days !.

It seems that the French like the idea that "improved" badges of the Crescent were made to order. Since a smaller piece is being sold, it will be interesting to see how much credit is given here to the idea and how much locals will be prepared to pay for it. A badge, similar to the one coming up sold for ?3.000 in 1995..... Come to think of it, I believe the badge I showed was part of an exhibition at the Legion of Honor Museum quite a few years ago.

Recent Turkish litterature, according to Palthey, mentions the "european" made badges in a rather amused way. I am also very grateful to Ed for his learned comments.

Best regards

V'eteran

[Tim Tezer]

Sorry for chiming in so late. I have seen four or five examples of this order, whatever it is, and on more than one occasion it has been incorrectly identified as an Order of the Crescent. It is NOT an Order of the Crescent or any other officially manufactured or awarded Ottoman decoration. Nor is it, to my knowledge, a modern Turkish award, especially as the use of a turban as a symbol would be quite out of touch with a modern, constitutionally secular state.

I wish I could give you more information than that, but all I can say is what can be surmised from looking at them. I agree that they appear to be European made, but might have been made for another Middle-Eastern government (the crescent and star symbols are not exclusively Turkish), or for that matter might have been made for a fraternal organization that was trying to tap into the imagery of "the mysterious Orient," as the Shriners do here in the U.S. by wearing a fez as their official headgear, usually with a large crescent embroidered on it.

Tim

[Veteran]

Recent investigations seem to confirm that these badges were probably custom-made for the French recipients of the Order of the Crescent, during the 19th Century. They had nothing to do with official Turkish-made awards. A beautiful portrait painting of General FOY shows him wearing the very same neck-badge. This particular badge I showed was part of an exhibition at the Museum of the Legion of honor, some years ago.

One smaller badge was sold at auction in Paris (and bought quite a steep price) in 1995. An other one, also smaller with an miniature, are to be auctioned on May 30th, which will be interesting to watch.

I am very grateful for all the comments given. Further information will be gratefully received.

Regards to all on this forum

Veteran

[demir]

Hello,

The picture shown above is not an Ottoman or Turkish order or medal. I checked all the books and I have and asked questions to dealers.

Best wishes

Demir

[Veteran]

Hello Demir

Thank you for this information. We are all now satisfied that this badge is NOT AN OFFICIAL OTTOMAN AWARD.

Chances are that the badges found in France would be custom-made XIXth Century "fantasy" decorations, possibly made to order or available to French recipients of the Ottoman Order of the Crescent who wanted to have something to show for it.

The Royal Almanach for 1828 lists all French holders of foreign awards and decorations. This book was the official reference of the "establishment".

It mentions eleven holders of the Ottoman Order of the Crescent :

General Comte de La Ville-sur-Illon

Baron des Acres

Baron Jassaud

Marquis de Latour-Maubourg

Sa Seigneurerie le G?n?ral Comte Guilleminot (This general is said to have worn a "Crescent" badge on a neck-ribbon).n)Baron Pr?vot

Sa Seigneurerie le Comte de No?

Marquis de Dreneu

Chevalier de Gualy

Colonel Regnaud de Villatte

Monsieur Boidin

A later issue of the Imperial Almanach in 1855 mentions seven survivors since 1828 :

General Comte de La Ville-sur-Illon

Monsieur Dr?vot (could be Pr?vot previously listed)

Comte de No?

Marquis de Dreneu

Chevalier de Gualy

Colonel Regnaud de Villatte

Monsieur Boidin

Obviously, this order was taken very seriously by the French. The holders would certainly have wanted something to show for it, even if they had not received a formal badge from the Turks. They probably had them made, since they were officially recognised by the King and the Emperor successively, over a very long period ..... As mentioned earlier, a portrait painting of General FOY is known to exist with the badge worn around his neck.

I will be pleased to report the result of the auction when the smaller badge and the miniature will be put up for sale. It is fully understood by now that the badges were local productions. But they do have appeal to collectors of foreign awards to Frenchmen. The important thing is to undestand as clearly as possible what they truly are, and this debate has been and remains very enlightening.

Thank you all. Best regards

Veteran

Edited May 23, 2008 by Veteran

[Veteran]

Hello all

A large auction sale was held in Paris May 30th. A significant selection of very good Ottoman period medals and orders (58 items in all) were sold, including an "officer's" European made gold badge of the "Order of the Crescent" with period ribbon (went for 12.950 Euro / ?9.500) and a miniature (8.630 Euro / ?6.070), sales taxes inclusive.

A strange "ghost-order" with obviously powerful attraction...

Regards

Veteran

[demir]

Hi Veteran,

Is it possible to see the pictures.

Thanks

[Veteran]

Hi Veteran,

Is it possible to see the pictures.

Thanks

The picture and descriptions (in French) can be found on the auction catalogue : palthey@phaleristic.com. N?87 & 88.

Regards

Veteran

[Bear]

Hello,

Here is a print of Horace Sebastiani and a link to Wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horace_Sebastiani

thanks,

barry

[Bear]

Lord Nelson

Both of his awards look similar to the Perrot.

Website with some info.

http://www.stjoachimorder.org/nelson.htm

Edited August 1, 2008 by Bear

[Tim Tezer]

Lord Nelson

Both of his awards look similar to the Perrot.

Website with some info.

http://www.stjoachimorder.org/nelson.htm

Similar if you mean that they had a crescent in the center. But the badge that started this discussion was suspended by a ribbon (which Nelson's awards are evidently not), from an enameled gold suspension device in the form of a turban. This turban suspension was completely made up by whoever made these badges, and was never a part of any Turkish made order.

I suppose the important question is this: were these privately purchased badges made in France in the early 19th century and illustrated by Perrot, or were they made later using a fanciful illustration in his book as a model?

Tim

[Veteran]

Similar if you mean that they had a crescent in the center. But the badge that started this discussion was suspended by a ribbon (which Nelson's awards are evidently not), from an enameled gold suspension device in the form of a turban. This turban suspension was completely made up by whoever made these badges, and was never a part of any Turkish made order.

I suppose the important question is this: were these privately purchased badges made in France in the early 19th century and illustrated by Perrot, or were they made later using a fanciful illustration in his book as a model?

Tim

Tim is quite right, these badges seem to have been felt to be necessary by the holders of the Crescent. Imagination was let loose to satisfy wealthy prospective clients. In other words, the French made the badges they thought the Turks should have given them (if the Turks had been French, naturally !).

The appeal of the few badges which have been seen on the market comes from the existing portraits and other representations of the very few holders. Collectors consider they were worn and are therefore legitimate. Since they were very scarce indeed and that the events are now well over 150 years, original proof is difficult to establish. Makers archives or private original orders may one day emerge.

To be honest, I was happy to buy one when I saw it, not cheap but at a "reasonnable" price. Would probably do it again, they are facinating.

It is to be expected that the debate, for what it is worth, will remain open for some time yet.

All the best

Veteran

Edited August 1, 2008 by Veteran

[Veteran]

Hello

The Turkish Order of the Crescent is like the Loch Ness monster : it does not exist but it reappears occasionnally.

This time two pieces are beautifully displayed as part of the Spada Collection, to be seen at the Mus?e national de la Legion d'honneur et des ordres de chevalerie in Paris.

One is a gold and enamels breast badge very similar to the "commander" badge I showed and the other breast badge sold in PARIS last year at auction, both previously mentioned on this forum

The other is an embroidered breast star, the property once of Admiral Horatio, viscount Nelson, duke of Bronte, who received it after the Battle of the Nile.

The breast badge is admittedly french manufacture.

An other badge also is to be seen as a miniature with reduced-size stars of the russian orders of Saint-Alexander Newski, Saint-Wladimir and polish White Eagle. Possibly italian workmanship according to the catalogue.

Regards

Veteran

Edited February 24, 2009 by Veteran

[CUSSONNEAU]

Hello,

After a year of intensive (!) investigations, this document from an old house in Paris under the Restauration (Predecessor of the Halley's firm) :

Regards

Cuss

[saschaw]

Is known by whom that was made?

I have no idea who was Halley's Predecessor, and when exactely... but it looks undoubtfull interresting.

[Tim Tezer]

I believe that Halley's predecessor was Pierre-Felix Paris, whose firm was founded in 1790 by his father, Jean-Alexandre Paris. It's a very interesting drawing, and what appears to be an enamel test piece! A fabulous find.

Tim