Indian Title Badges

[Hugh]

Now I'm confused. I thought Rai Bahadur and equivalent were worn around the neck. This picture looks as thought it's a breast badge.

[Ed_Haynes]

Rather complex . . . but thanks for asking . . . .

Until 1923, they were to have been worn around the neck. By then, two problems had coalesced:

-- The wearing of miniature medals had become common in India. Where did these awards fit and where should they be worn? (And the mint had begun selling miniatures and showing a tidy profit from doing that.)

-- The ribbons had been made in China. With the rising tide of the Chinese Civil War, the availability of ribbons had become a problem and ribbons had become hard to procure (a problem which those of us who collect these things can share?).

The decision was thereupon made to allow wear from normal breast suspension as an option. Most did this. Though the circumstances under which they could be worn then became an issue (and the government soon surrendered).

And the ITBs were given their place within the order of wearing, though these were (strangely, or NOT), published only in the GoI and not in the LG notified orders of wearing.

I am writing all this up right now, either for the OMRS journal (who may not be interestesd?) or for the JOMSA (who may not be interested?).

Hope this helps, ITBs are such great fun, such rich history, and so (studiously and intentionally) unappreciated . . . but maybe I shouldn't say that out in public??

Edited November 1, 2007 by Ed_Haynes

[Hugh]

Rather complex . . . but thanks for asking . . . .

Until 1923, they were to have been worn around the neck. By then, two problems had coalesced:

-- The wearing of miniature medals had become common in India. Where did these awards fit and where should they be worn? (And the mint had begun selling miniatures and showing a tidy profit from doing that.)

-- The ribbons had been made in China. With the rising tide of the Chinese Civil War, the availability of ribbons had become a problem and ribbons had become hard to procure (a problem which those of us who collect these things can share?).

The decision was thereupon made to allow wear from normal breast suspension as an option. Most did this. Though the circumstances under which they could be worn then became an issue (and the government soon surrendered).

And the ITBs were given their place within the order of wearing, though these were (strangely, or NOT), published only in the GoI and not in the LG notified orders of wearing.

I am writing all this up right now, either for the OMRS journal (who may not be interestesd?) or for the JOMSA (who may not be interested?).

Hope this helps, ITBs are such great fun, such rich history, and so (studiously and intentionally) unappreciated . . . but maybe I shouldn't say that out in public??

Just one more question. When worn on the breast, where did they fit in the order of precedence? I'm reworking my British board, and want to get it right.

I'll look forward to the article. I've only had the reference from Dorling to date. I hope you place it in OMSA; I'm not a member of OMRS.

[Ed_Haynes]

The final Indian order of wearing before Independence (Indian Army Order 752/1947) showed:

. . .

Order of British India

Kaisar-i-Hind Medal

Order of Burma (for good service)

Order of St. John

Title Badges

Albert Medal

Union of South Africa King?s Medal for Bravery, in gold

Distinguished Conduct Medal

Conspicuous Gallantry Medal

George Medal

. . .

(While some of these are irrelevant to India.)

[Ed_Haynes]

Just in:

Khan Sahib Habibullah, Malguzar and Pleader, Buhrampur, Nimar District, Central Provinces

1- Khan Sahib, George V, "Mr. Habibullah, 3rd June 1930"

2- George V Jubilee (roll p. 241, sl. 22)

Research pending.

[Ed_Haynes]

And two more (not a pair):

1- George V Rai Bahadur - "Babu Tarit Bhushan Ray, 1st Jany 1927" - an unusual direct appointment to a "bahadur", he was Secretary, Mahajan Sabha, Calcutta, Bengal - the badge aculally, and unusally, retains most of the gilding (though it looks washed-out in the scan).

2- George V Sardar Sahib - "S Fateh Singh" - an unusual and uncommon undated Sardar Sahib, only awarded for about a year - so far, Fateh Singhji eludes tracing, but many of these early awards represnt earlier awards of Hindu titles, converted to Sikh titles when the Punjab Government raised a stink and a half.

Research looms

[Paul R]

Ed,

There look to be many layers to this award. Do you have them all? If so, can you please make a photo of each and arranged in an order of precidence? I have learned so much from you.

Thanks again,

Paul

[Hugh]

Rather complex . . . but thanks for asking . . . .

Until 1923, they were to have been worn around the neck. By then, two problems had coalesced:

-- The wearing of miniature medals had become common in India. Where did these awards fit and where should they be worn? (And the mint had begun selling miniatures and showing a tidy profit from doing that.)

-- The ribbons had been made in China. With the rising tide of the Chinese Civil War, the availability of ribbons had become a problem and ribbons had become hard to procure (a problem which those of us who collect these things can share?).

The decision was thereupon made to allow wear from normal breast suspension as an option. Most did this. Though the circumstances under which they could be worn then became an issue (and the government soon surrendered).

And the ITBs were given their place within the order of wearing, though these were (strangely, or NOT), published only in the GoI and not in the LG notified orders of wearing.

I am writing all this up right now, either for the OMRS journal (who may not be interestesd?) or for the JOMSA (who may not be interested?).

Hope this helps, ITBs are such great fun, such rich history, and so (studiously and intentionally) unappreciated . . . but maybe I shouldn't say that out in public??

Hi, Ed,

Did you ever finish the writeup? If so, where can I find it?

Hugh

[Ed_Haynes]

Hi, Ed,

Did you ever finish the writeup? If so, where can I find it?

Hugh

Not yet, Hugh. Thanks for asking. Needed to get some additional statistical analysis done and that is mostly complete. Now, just to make it short enough that someone will publish it.

Will post here when it is "in press".

Edited May 10, 2009 by Ed_Haynes

[DavidN]

Ed, many thanks from me as well. I am a brand new member but very interested in ITB. I look forward to your paper and will send you an inquiry off line.

[rishiindiana]

Hello Ed_Haynes,

Thanks a lot for sharing the pics and the information about the title badges.

However, i have a query.. from where did you get the information to do further research about the person the badges were awarded to?

I have a Rai Bahadur badge but i find it now impossible to look for more information regarding the person it was awarded.

Thanks & Regards,

Rishi

[Hugh]

Hi, Rishi,

Sorry, but Ed has left this forum some time ago. You may be able to contact him on the OMSA forum (http://www.omsa.org/node?destination=node).

Best,

Hugh

[Hugh]

He also ran a forum called Sout Asia gongs, but I can't seem to find it this morning.

[rishiindiana]

Thanks a lot Hugh!!

[Laurence Strong]

http://sagongs.ipbhost.com/index.php?http://sagongs.ipbhost.com/

[James Hoard]

Hello Ed_Haynes,

Thanks a lot for sharing the pics and the information about the title badges.

However, i have a query.. from where did you get the information to do further research about the person the badges were awarded to?

I have a Rai Bahadur badge but i find it now impossible to look for more information regarding the person it was awarded.

Rishi,

Do you have an actual name or location (i.e. the pre-1947 province he lived in) ?

How did you come by your decoration?

If you have a name, then you can look through the India Gazette and the gazette of the province your man lived in 1911-1947. Although I think the last awards were actually in 1946.

There are also annual lists for each grade, but these will be very hard to find anywhere except the archives. The India Office records in the British Library have a few. but not a complete set.

Cheers,

James

[spencerm356]

I have read with interest this string.

I have a title badge and would be interested in researching it further. I understand from above that there were annual list of awards produced and these are in the British Library. Otherwise it it an extensive exercise of trawling the Gazette of India or the home province. Are these searchable online or is this a trip to the National Record Office or British Library?

In the passages above the abreviations "F&P 94-H/1931" and "PSV 42-H/1943:" are used. What do they repesent?

VMT

Michael

[James Hoard]

I have read with interest this string.

I have a title badge and would be interested in researching it further. I understand from above that there were annual list of awards produced and these are in the British Library. Otherwise it it an extensive exercise of trawling the Gazette of India or the home province. Are these searchable online or is this a trip to the National Record Office or British Library?

In the passages above the abreviations "F&P 94-H/1931" and "PSV 42-H/1943:" are used. What do they repesent?

Hello Michael,

I am afraid there is nothing on-line. You will have to do some donkey work trawling through files and records.

If you know the approximate date and the province, the easiest thing is to go down to the British Library at St Pancras or the National Archives in Kew and look through the provincial gazettes. These are a lot easier to handle than the mighty India Gazette with all its various confusing sections and sub sections.

"F&P 94-H/1931" is a reference to the file. "F&P" being the "Foreign and Political Department" of the Government of India; "H" being "Honours"; 94 is the file number and 1931 the year. So what this all means is that this was the 94th file opened by the Foreign and Political Department in the year 1931 concerning Honours and Awards.

"PSV 42-H/1943" means 42nd file opened by the Private Secretary to the Viceroy in 1943 concerning Honours and Awards.

These are the references that would appear written by hand on the front of the file. However, the British Library reference numbers are very different and I am not entirely sure why they have not been used. The researcher would have used the BL reference numbers to find and call up the files in the first place. It makes tracing them a lot more difficult and one would need to take the additional step of having to go through a conversion chart to trace the BL number.

Cheers,

James

[peter monahan]

You might also consider tracking down Ed Haynes, a real expert on all things Indian. He used to frequent this forum but no longer does so but I think he is still active on OMSA [Orders & Medals Society of America] and has his own site - "SA Gongs" - here: http://sagongs.ipbhost.com/

He is a bit prickly but very very knowledgeable. Good luck. Do let us know if you find out anything interesting, please.

Peter

[MCMH]

The "Gazette of India" itself is of limited use if you aren't able to visit the National Arcgives, New Delihi, as it literally repeates the information on the back - although in some cases it may provide some small extra details, such as the Rank Profession or State Location of the recipient. However, if you are able to visit the National Archives, New Delhi, the GoI is invaluable because the section in which the notice was printed, combined with details of whom it was requested by, allows you (through much hard work) to trace the original recomendation files - which is where Ed obtained this information. There are no Title Badge Citations in Honours correspondance in the India Office (I know where they should be located, and have looked), though you may find a letter stating claims x - xx had been aproved, X has been turned down, and Y was refered to another authority, and granted.

Unfortunately James is not correct about what he says - in many cases the Provincial Gazettes only repeat information published in the GoI. Since these notices can be printed many weeks later, citing the GoI Date, you can waste quite a lot of time hunting for the notice - and then it will only regurgitate the original GoI entry - with no further details. As for finding the references in the GoI it takes between 1 - 2 hours, including the time it takes to order the GoI.

That said there are other ways of reconstructing the career of an individual, both secondary and primary sources, but it depends upon who they were. If you would like to send me the details, I can make some recomendations.

As for Ed having left this forum, it was a pity. Indeed I hardly visit this site due to some of the abuse metted out by one of the posters above - whilst I do not agree with all Ed's views, I cannot abide somone who claims to speak up for the proud history of the British Empire whilst thinking it clever to make mildly racist taunts to wind someone up.

Edited December 26, 2012 by MCMH